Immigration without restrictions

[AWPrime]

Looks likes a good idea for a thread.


My opinion is that immigration without restrictions is pure madness. No country can support unlimited growth. And there is no way to keep any bad ones out of the country.

 

[BPSCG]

My opinion is that immigration without restrictions is pure madness.

Well, I agree, but is anyone actually proposing it?

 

[TobiasTheViking]

since there is no planet x i won't vote.

 

[Jocko]

My opinion is that immigration without restrictions is pure madness. No country can support unlimited growth. And there is no way to keep any bad ones out of the country.

It's working out well for Mexico. Of course, their unlimted growth is negative.

 

[EvilSmurf]

Help, officer, someone's savaging a straw man!

(this is in reference to the OP, obviously)

 

[pipelineaudio]

unlimited immigration is fine as long as someone else pays for it

 

[Cheap Thrills]

The poll is interesting. Looks like Madness is leading.

 

[HeavyAaron]

unlimited immigration is fine as long as someone else pays for it

I'm very confused. What is the (direct) cost of immigration? Who pays for it, if NOT "someone else"?

If it's indirect costs you are referring to, how do you propose transferring those costs from an unknown group of people? And still the question remains, to whom?

Aaron

 

[Earthborn]

My opinion is that immigration without restrictions is pure madness. No country can support unlimited growth.

There is no reason to assume immigration without restrictions will cause unlimited growth. No country can ever grow beyond 'total population of the Earth' minus 'total number of people prefering to stay where they are'. So there is clearly an upper limit.

And there is no way to keep any bad ones out of the country.

'Keeping the bad ones out of the country' is not a legitimate goal, because if you keep 'bad ones' out of the country it means that other countries will have to deal with them instead. It makes better sense to put the 'bad ones' in jail than it is to expect countries to keep their borders closed for 'bad ones' and as a result make it difficult for 'good ones' to live where they want.

 

[gnome]

It may seem a bit cheesy, but I happened to look up the entire poem:

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land:
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Emma Lazarus

I have always loved this saying on our statue of liberty... but now that my emotional appeal is over, let me get practical... certainly we can't open the borders wide, let anyone in, and ask no questions. But I believe it should be possible for most desiring entry to do so legally.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I'm very confused. What is the (direct) cost of immigration? Who pays for it, if NOT "someone else"?

If it's indirect costs you are referring to, how do you propose transferring those costs from an unknown group of people? And still the question remains, to whom?

Aaron

Im just being a rule8

Everyone, except my neighbors and I seemsto think its a great idea to have unlimited immigration as long as me and my neighbors pay for it

 

[Solitaire]

I'm very confused. What is the (direct) cost of immigration? Who pays for it, if NOT "someone else"?

If it's indirect costs you are referring to, how do you propose transferring those costs from an unknown group of people? And still the question remains, to whom?

Aaron

I'm not sure there are any direct costs, but numerous indirect costs exist. For example, immigrants drive down wages by increasing the supply of workers, often well bellow minimum wage. (Hence the living wage movement looks like a bad joke.) They also increase the prices of housing, food, energy by increasing demand. Essentially, when employers cheat everyone else in the economy pays for it.

 

[shecky]

They also increase the prices of housing, food, energy by increasing demand.

IOW, they create markets.

 

[shecky]

Immigration without many restrictions doesn't seem like a bad idea. Perhaps a passport to see if you're on the wanted lists, and go on your own business.

It doesn't seem really any worse than immigration between states. Interstate immigration has the exact same problems. But it always works out.

 

[69dodge]

I'm not sure there are any direct costs, but numerous indirect costs exist. For example, immigrants drive down wages by increasing the supply of workers, often well bellow minimum wage. (Hence the living wage movement looks like a bad joke.) They also increase the prices of housing, food, energy by increasing demand. Essentially, when employers cheat everyone else in the economy pays for it.

Of course, that's just one side of the story.

If they drive down the amount of money that employers are willing to pay for a certain service, they thereby also drive down the amount of money that employers are required to pay for that service. Which obviously is good for those employers. And indirectly good for whoever wants to buy whatever those employers make: if it costs less to make, it can be sold for less.

Conversely, if immigrants drive up the prices of housing, food, and energy, this is bad for people who want to buy those things, but good for people who want to sell them.

Also, immigration clearly is good for the immigrants; otherwise they wouldn't immigrate. Is there any reason why we should discount their opinion, just because of where they were born?

So it isn't clear, at least not to me, what the overall effect is. Or even what we might mean by "overall effect". If it's good for some people and bad for others, how do we combine all these people's differing opinions into one overall result?

 

[pipelineaudio]

fine, YOU pay for it

 

[69dodge]

fine, YOU pay for it

What should I pay for? How much does it cost? What do I get for my money?

I have no strong opinion on the matter of immigration; I don't know enough about it. I was just throwing out some thoughts that came to mind.

I guess you're against immigration. Don't you think that some stuff you now buy is cheaper than it otherwise would be, because whoever made it was able to employ cheaper workers?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Im not against immigration

Im against immigration without restriction

and no nothing I buy here is cheaper because of unrestricted immigrant labor, as less people have money to give me I have less money to spend so overall, something could cost half the price it is and still cost more than it used to

 

[shecky]

It is a bit interesting. In a way, we may be experiencing
immigration without restrictions already, as 11-12 million illegal immigrants may indicate. Illegal immigration may as well equal immigration without restriction. Yet, it's difficult to pin down serious real problems caused by illegal immigration. Unemployment is low, the economy is good, illegal immigrants may even contribute more than enough taxes. The most serious problems associated with illegal immigration seem to be regional and caused by it's illegality. Problems that can be largely dealt with by simply making them legal.

Labor protectionism seems a consistent reason to endorse tougher immigration policy. Yet illegal immigrants fill a niche increasingly vacated by declining American birthrates and higher native born levels of education. Current unemployment may be a bigger problem with higher skilled persons in specialized fields than in typically unskilled areas dominated by illegal (and legal) immigrant labor.


Illegal immigration is a reality that tougher policy won't fix, any more than tougher policy could fix dope smoking.

 

[shecky]

Im not against immigration

Im against immigration without restriction

and no nothing I buy here is cheaper because of unrestricted immigrant labor, as less people have money to give me I have less money to spend so overall, something could cost half the price it is and still cost more than it used to

Can you back this up? You seem to be painting the economy as a zero sum game.