I'm irritated by Penn and Teller

[epepke]

I just saw the episode of http://www.randi.org/jr/040904that.html#5 that covered drugs and the war thereon. While, ideologically, I favor the legalization of the majority of drugs, there were three things about this episode that really stuck in my craw.

1) The whole "nobody has ever died from marijuana" schtick. Although once it was stated that nobody had ever died from an overdose of marijuana, at other times it was stated that nobody had ever died from marijuana. Hey, guys! It's smoke, and it's particularly irritating smoke as well. Deliberately concentrating and inhaling smoke, and chronic irritation, are both known to cause cancer. I don't know how many people have died from marijuana usage, but to imagine that it has been zero is just nucking futs.

2) The whole "medical marijuana" schtick. I think that marijuana for medical uses should be legal. But, unless you count the English pharmacists who inject heroin into cigarettes for heroin addicts, smoking some plant matter is, at best, highly unorthodox in modern pharmacology. It's herbal medicine. Modern pharmacology, for the 25% of drug families that are based on plants or animals is all about finding out what actual substances are responsible for the beneficial effect and separating them from other substances that may be harmful. Besides, you get your own inhaler, with a metered dose. That scene with a bunch of sick people passing around the same bag of smoke and one guy supercharging the old lady, while it doubtless resembles many parties, didn't look a lot like medicine to me.

3) Isn't this about the 87th time that Penn has worked in his statement about never having taken a recreational drug into a lecture? As far as I can tell, while this kind of thing might have some value as supercilious ideological purity, with respect to practical matters and getting the facts right, it only indicates a lack of personal knowledge.

 

[TLN]

I don't know how many people have died from marijuana usage, but to imagine that it has been zero is just nucking futs.

Then let's not "imagine." Do you have any evidence that people have died from pot smoking? Can we see it?

 

[charley_bigtime]

Re: Re: I'm irritated by Penn and Teller

Then let's not "imagine." Do you have any evidence that people have died from pot smoking? Can we see it?

Depends on your definition of the words 'died from.'

Pot smoking has been the root cause of numerous deaths. Just not necessarily the user in the "short term" but in it tends to have long term health effects.

It also depends on Epepke's definition of "death by Marijuana usage." The user or other people who come into contact with them when they are whacked.

Loads of permutations. I've just finished working nights and cannot be arsed to list them all/any.

Back to you.

Hth.

 

[TLN]

Pot smoking has been the root cause of numerous deaths. Just not necessarily the user in the "short term" but in it tends to have long term health effects.

And the evidence for this is...?

 

[epepke]

Re: Re: I'm irritated by Penn and Teller

Then let's not "imagine." Do you have any evidence that people have died from pot smoking? Can we see it?

No. Unless you count marijuana-related automobile accidents, which, to be fair, always get counted with respect to alcohol deaths.

Do you have evidence that marijuana is unique amongst all other substances that burn in that chronic irritation from inhalation is somehow unable to cause cancer?

Bear in mind that it took decades of correlation to find a clear cause-and-effect relationship between smoking tobacco and cancer. That's of a behavior that was not only legal but socially encouraged and involved a drug that was politically important to the country in which the studies were done.

 

[TLN]

Do you have evidence that marijuana is unique amongst all other substances that burn in that chronic irritation from inhalation is somehow unable to cause cancer?

Since I haven't made any such claim, no, I don't. You said it's harmful, which I'm willing to accept. I'd just like to see some evidence.

 

[epepke]

Since I haven't made any such claim, no, I don't. You said it's harmful, which I'm willing to accept. I'd just like to see some evidence.

Not really.

I said that inhaling concentrated smoke in general is harmful, and if you want support of that, I can provide it.

I can also provide support for the idea that chronic irritation causes lung cancer, if you'd like that.

If you really need it, I can also provide support for the idea that smoking marijuana on a regular basis causes irritation, but since it's so easy to test personally by lighting up a joint, I'm not sure of the value.

I'm not willing to say that smoking marijuana directly leads to lung cancer in any significant amounts, because there have been no long-term studies that I am aware of.

What I am irritated by (though not in a physical sense) is how this gets automagically translated into "nobody has ever died from smoking marijuana." Which is probably not an exact quote, but close enough. The claim was made.

Now, if the claim were instead that "there is no conclusive link between smoking marijuana and lung cancer," I wouldn't have become irritated.

Edited to add: On the other hand, I did a quick Google search and found this: http://www.sarnia.com/groups/antidrug/rltychck/cncrlink.html And this: http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9808/18/marijuana.cancer/

 

[Undodog]

I’m all in favour of legalising marijuana.
Just so it will shut up those incredibly boring people who constantly sing it praises.

If you like to smoke it, just do it. The Special Forces aren’t going to swing in through your windows. You’re not rebelling against the system by sticking up a ‘hilarious’ picture of an alien saying, ‘Take me to your dealer’. Especially when you take it down before your mum walks in.
I saw a guy ask if he could skin up (roll a joint) in a police station. They just told him to go outside.

The worst people are those that try to tell us that it’s not addictive. Maybe it’s not (chemically), but these same people smoke six spliffs (joints) every evening and use resin, which is basically just adding something to a cigarette!
And you ask them if they smoke and they will say, “Only weed.”
Riiight.

 

[richardm]

But, unless you count the English pharmacists who inject heroin into cigarettes for heroin addicts,

Say what? I'm pretty sure this isn't happening - at least, not with official approval. If you're trying to get your heroin-style kicks legally you'll get methadone, and like it.

 

[Soapy Sam]

But, unless you count the English pharmacists who inject heroin into cigarettes for heroin addicts,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Say what? I'm pretty sure this isn't happening - at least, not with official approval. If you're trying to get your heroin-style kicks legally you'll get methadone, and like it.


-Don't panic. It's probably homoeopathic heroin.

 

[Ian Osborne]

I’m all in favour of legalising marijuana.
Just so it will shut up those incredibly boring people who constantly sing it praises.

If you like to smoke it, just do it. The Special Forces aren’t going to swing in through your windows. You’re not rebelling against the system by sticking up a ‘hilarious’ picture of an alien saying, ‘Take me to your dealer’. Especially when you take it down before your mum walks in.
I saw a guy ask if he could skin up (roll a joint) in a police station. They just told him to go outside.

The worst people are those that try to tell us that it’s not addictive. Maybe it’s not (chemically), but these same people smoke six spliffs (joints) every evening and use resin, which is basically just adding something to a cigarette!
And you ask them if they smoke and they will say, “Only weed.”
Riiight.

 

[fsol]

I’m all in favour of legalising marijuana.
Just so it will shut up those incredibly boring people who constantly sing it praises.

If you like to smoke it, just do it. The Special Forces aren’t going to swing in through your windows. You’re not rebelling against the system by sticking up a ‘hilarious’ picture of an alien saying, ‘Take me to your dealer’. Especially when you take it down before your mum walks in.
I saw a guy ask if he could skin up (roll a joint) in a police station. They just told him to go outside.

The worst people are those that try to tell us that it’s not addictive. Maybe it’s not (chemically), but these same people smoke six spliffs (joints) every evening and use resin, which is basically just adding something to a cigarette!
And you ask them if they smoke and they will say, “Only weed.”
Riiight.

Yep, yep ,yep.

 

[geni]

Since I haven't made any such claim, no, I don't. You said it's harmful, which I'm willing to accept. I'd just like to see some evidence.

evidence that the stuff is carcenogenic

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12412830&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12412843&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12412839&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11084527&dopt=Abstract

Evidence that drug driving is bad idea

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14725950&dopt=Abstract

For the recoord I'm in favor of legaisation.

 

[Marc]

Re: Re: I'm irritated by Penn and Teller

Then let's not "imagine." Do you have any evidence that people have died from pot smoking? Can we see it?

I don't have evidence of it, but do have evidence of it being a good possibility.

My neice tried smoking pot at a party. She was given a joint laced with LSD and a bunch of other crap. She ended up in the hospital, her heart had stopped. Some time later she tried smoking pot again, this time without all the extra additives. Once again ended up in an ambulance heading for the emergency room. Seems that she is allergic to pot. If she had been alone, or if the people with her had been doped into incompitance, she could very well have died immediatly from smoking pot.

Of course this is a rare case and not what they were talking about.

btw, missed the episode last night and am kicking myself right now. Going away for the weekend, hope I can catch it later.

 

[EdipisReks]

a bit off topic, but of course inhaling any smoke is bad for you. however, as an occasional recreational pot smoker and moderate cigarette smoker, i'm not worried about the cancer risk of pot. a lot of dope users are in the same boat that i am. it really doesn't matter, as the robot apocalypse is gonna get us all first anyway.

 

[richardm]

Re: Re: Re: I'm irritated by Penn and Teller

I don't have evidence of it, but do have evidence of it being a good possibility.

My neice tried smoking pot at a party. She was given a joint laced with LSD and a bunch of other crap. She ended up in the hospital, her heart had stopped. Some time later she tried smoking pot again, this time without all the extra additives. Once again ended up in an ambulance heading for the emergency room. Seems that she is allergic to pot. If she had been alone, or if the people with her had been doped into incompitance, she could very well have died immediatly from smoking pot.

Of course this is a rare case and not what they were talking about.

No, indeed,while it's alarming it doesn't tell us anything about the effects of pot on people who aren't allergic.

Some people drop dead after eating peanuts, but that doesn't mean that peanuts are intrinsically likely to make anyone drop dead, and you wouldn't ban them on those grounds.

 

[scotth]

Re: Re: Re: I'm irritated by Penn and Teller

My neice tried smoking pot at a party. She was given a joint laced with LSD and a bunch of other crap.

This completely strains credibility.

How would someone even know if a joint was laced with LSD? LSD is an incredibly fragile molecule. It would be completely destroyed if smoked.

 

[Marc]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm irritated by Penn and Teller

This completely strains credibility.

How would someone even know if a joint was laced with LSD? LSD is an incredibly fragile molecule. It would be completely destroyed if smoked.

I could be wrong on LSD being one of the additives included in the joint. Combination of my faulty memory and my niece not getting an accurate description of the additives. Then again, anyone who puts that kind of crap togeather might not realize LSD would be destroyed before it can have any effects.

 

[Hellbound]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm irritated by Penn and Teller

This completely strains credibility.

How would someone even know if a joint was laced with LSD? LSD is an incredibly fragile molecule. It would be completely destroyed if smoked.

Not that I know, but my assumption woul.d be that one wanting to lace a joint with LSD would simply dot the end of the paper.

Just a thought. Doesn't strain credibility that much. And I've heard of the practice before.

Although one more often hears of a joint that has PCP mixed with the marijuana.

*shrug*

I make no claim about the possible veracity of these statements, they are only opinion.

 

[Brown]

Something else about this episode had me scratching my head. One of the notions put forth was that a free person ought to have the right to ingest any substance he wanted, as long as it didn't hurt anyone else.

An argument can be made that pot affects--and therefore arguably hurts--others. Second-hand marijuana smoke can cause intoxication--among other effects--in those who choose not to smoke. (Physically affecting a non-smoker with second-hand pot smoke was actually depicted during the show.) Therefore, it would seem reasonable that even if pot were to be legalized, restrictions would have to be placed on its use so that those who wish not to be exposed to second-hand smoke will have their wishes respected. The restrictions would have to be more restrictive than those pertaining to tobacco usage (but of course, Penn & Teller were opposed to certain tobacco usage restrictions in the first season).

An even more troubling concern is that some drugs by their nature have the practical effect of hurting others. They have effects that are orders of magnitude worse than alcohol, for example. Users who get hooked on certain substances care only about the drug, they don't care about work or responsibilities, they become a burden to their families and friends....

In other words, there are some drugs--like acohol and perhaps pot--where a case can reasonably made that if the drugs are used responsibly, only the user is affected. But there are other drugs where it's hard to make the case that only the user of the drug is affected. This sort of distinction was missing from the show.