I'm a LIBERAL!?!

[Roadtoad]

My son, Chris, and I were talking this morning about a number of political issues that we usually discuss. Among these were Bush's Social Security plan, (which I don't think is going to work, because for one thing, people don't understand that an investment is used to maintain value, not necessarily gain); Defense Department cuts; Federal R&D dollars used to development of new nuclear weapons, instead of working towards better nuclear medicine; political ethics, (an oxymoron if there ever was one); DoE regulations for schools in the US...

We were back and forth on a lot of this, when Chris floored me, saying, "Dad, admit it. You're a liberal."

A liberal? Me?

I always thought I was something of a conservative, but, hell, given the way the politicians behave these days, it's hard to tell who's conservative or who's liberal.

Could someone explain this one to me?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Easily. The labels "conservative" and "liberal" mean nothing. Nothing. Nothing. They are terms politicians apply to themselves or their opponents regardless of the political views, stances, actions, history, or desires of the person in question. Hence we have "conservatives" tramplings states' rights, "liberals" decrying national education legislation, and "moderates" advocating military invasion and occupation of foreign countries.

The terms are just more items to add to the list of words that are oft-used, but not to be taken at face value.

 

[Roadtoad]

Yeah, but Chris is a genuine, real-live, honest-to-Ed, card-carrying Move-On.Org member, liberal, and proud of it.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Yeah, but Chris is a genuine, real-live, honest-to-Ed, card-carrying Move-On.Org member, liberal, and proud of it.

Then soon your journey will be complete. If you only knew the power of the dark side! It is useless to resist....it is your destiny! Join with him, and together you can rule the galaxy as father and son!


eta: Although once you do rule the galaxy, you'll spend a lot of time hammering out a universal health care plan.

 

[corplinx]

Yeah, but Chris is a genuine, real-live, honest-to-Ed, card-carrying Move-On.Org member, liberal, and proud of it.

this is part of michael moore's gig

Basically, if you believe in your heart that everyone should have free health care and there should be no wars then you are a liberal. He's been trying to feed this line of thought for several years after he wrote an article on it. Moveon and others are on the kick too.

Its a nice dishonest line of misdirection since I think most of us are pretty idealistic at heart but are more pragmatic and realistic. Sure we wish there were no wars and nobody got sick but that doesn't mean we want government health care or isolationism that could lead to chinese domination.

 

[Zep]

I'd second the "useless label" notion. Over here, "liberal" equates to "born to rule", or perhaps more accurately "Masonic Tory monarchist blue-blood with a faint Aussie accent".

You is what you is, Road. So's Chris.

 

[peptoabysmal]

Yeah, but Chris is a genuine, real-live, honest-to-Ed, card-carrying Move-On.Org member, liberal, and proud of it.

There's your answer. Chris wishes to have this in common with you. This is way better than when they don't want to have anything in common with you.

 

[Chaos]

Yeah, but Chris is a genuine, real-live, honest-to-Ed, card-carrying Move-On.Org member, liberal, and proud of it.

Then maybe calling you a liberal was his way of saying "Dad, I´m proud of you"?

 

[RandFan]

I remember listening to Tammy Bruce on talk radio for the first time. She was at that time head of the Los Angeles chapter of NOW. FWIW, she is also a lesbian. After 3 hours of not finding a single thing with which I disagreed with her on I came to the conclusion that I too was a lesbian feminist. Odd how that happens.

I'm only slightly kidding here. I really did become confused. Of course it turns out that Tammy is libertarian which is why I had agreed with her so much. The fact that she was also a feminist and lesbian only proved that I had some major misconceptions about those two things.

 

[Luke T.]

I remember listening to Tammy Bruce on talk radio for the first time. She was at that time head of the Los Angeles chapter of NOW. FWIW, she is also a lesbian. After 3 hours of not finding a single thing with which I disagreed with her on I came to the conclusion that I too was a lesbian feminist. Odd how that happens.

I'm only slightly kidding here. I really did become confused. Of course it turns out that Tammy is libertarian which is why I had agreed with her so much. The fact that she was also a feminist and lesbian only proved that I had some major misconceptions about those two things.

A lesbian friend of my wife is more politically conservative than I am.

She's a banker, which may have something to do with it.

 

[Meadmaker]

The word "liberal" is supposed to refer to people who support freedom. "liber" is the root, after all.

The word "conservative" is supposed to refer to people who want to keep things the way they are. That's what they are "conserving".


So are the Democrats for freedom? Are Republicans trying to save the status quo? I think the answer is no, in both cases. The words no longer describe the people labelled by those words.

 

[Mephisto]

Then soon your journey will be complete. If you only knew the power of the dark side! It is useless to resist....it is your destiny! Join with him, and together you can rule the galaxy as father and son!


eta: Although once you do rule the galaxy, you'll spend a lot of time hammering out a universal health care plan.

 

[Mephisto]

I'll also agree that the labels are useless. For instance, I favor the death penalty, I'm against gun control, I believe in a strong military . . . what are my political leanings?

 

[RandFan]

I'll also agree that the labels are useless. For instance, I favor the death penalty, I'm against gun control, I believe in a strong military . . . what are my political leanings?

Your The correct ones, as they pertain to this issue.

 

[jj]

My son, Chris, and I were talking this morning about a number of political issues that we usually discuss. Among these were Bush's Social Security plan, (which I don't think is going to work, because for one thing, people don't understand that an investment is used to maintain value, not necessarily gain); Defense Department cuts; Federal R&D dollars used to development of new nuclear weapons, instead of working towards better nuclear medicine; political ethics, (an oxymoron if there ever was one); DoE regulations for schools in the US...

We were back and forth on a lot of this, when Chris floored me, saying, "Dad, admit it. You're a liberal."

A liberal? Me?

I always thought I was something of a conservative, but, hell, given the way the politicians behave these days, it's hard to tell who's conservative or who's liberal.

Could someone explain this one to me?

The same reason the fascists here call me a "leftist" or sometimes a "loony leftist" or something of that sort.

The political view in this country has been so utterly, completely and dishonestly perverted that by today's standards Barry Goldwater would be considered an "extreme liberal" by some.

The same people who would consider him an extreme liberal, however, refuse to accept that they have utterly perverted the whole scale, and moved it to where "conservative" means "totalitarian religious fascist", and "liberal" means 'demands any civil rights other than "might makes right" altogether'.

It's not you.

 

[jj]

this is part of michael moore's gig

Fallacy of guilt by association.

Basically, if you believe in your heart that everyone should have free health care and there should be no wars then you are a liberal.

Straw man

He's been trying to feed this line of thought for several years after he wrote an article on it. Moveon and others are on the kick too.

Illicit extrapolation from straw man position.

Its a nice dishonest line of misdirection since I think most of us are pretty idealistic at heart but are more pragmatic and realistic.

Attempt to flatter the reader.

Sure we wish there were no wars and nobody got sick but that doesn't mean we want government health care or isolationism that could lead to chinese domination.

Multiple exercises of the excluded middle.

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: I'm a LIBERAL!?!

The political view in this country has been so utterly, completely and dishonestly perverted that by today's standards Barry Goldwater would be considered an "extreme liberal" by some.

And JFK a conservative by some. You have a valid point.

 

[billydkid]

My 2 cents

I have to add this because I often think there is a misunderstanding of some people who are not liberal, who, for example, would describe themselves as conservative or libertarian. In general, most of us agree with the goals espoused by liberals - equality, justice, personal liberty, prosperity for all, etc. The thing is, it is our belief that worst way to achieve those goals is through the state and through government. People like to think of libertarians as "greedy".

In fact, most libertarians are of modest means who believe the best way to achieve prosperity for everyone is to give everyone the opportunity to prosper and the best way to give everyone that opportunity is through free enterprise and that state management in the economy is not only not helpful, but, in fact, is counter productive - adding costs and obstacles and disincentives to commercial activities that would normally not be there.

An example might be this: I was walking downtown the other day during sidewalks sales days and there were a couple of food vendor carts. On the side of each of those carts were no less 8 separate licencing certificates from NY State and local governments. You that those vendors had to jump through hoops and pay through the nose for the privelege of selling their hotdogs to people who want to buy them.

Government goes out of its way to make it troublesome for industious little guys to go into business like that. What's worse, local governments have to grant you the privilege to sell your hotdogs in the local square, which they often do based on favoritism and friendships. This same sort of thing goes on on a macroscale thoughout all levels of government and this suppresses the economy and makes it hard for people who do want to do business on a small scale from participating in the economy.

 

[jj]

Re: Re: Re: I'm a LIBERAL!?!

And JFK a conservative by some. You have a valid point.

JFK I'm not sure of, I have never managed to figure out if he actually had a single goal, or if he was just reacting in real time.

Then there's his youngest brother. Oy!

 

[CBL4]

Inisting on putting multiple shaped pegs into either a round or a square hole is a foolish endeavor. It is even more aburd when from some angles the round hole is square and square hole is round.

The most notorius conservative republicans tend to be extremely conservative socially but their economic feelings are mixed (e.g. protectionism and low taxes). The most notorious leftist are extremely leftist economically but their social feelings are more mixed. When we throw in the mixed meaning of liberal (leftist vs. libertarian) it gets very difficult to use one or two words to describe someone.

Some people add a triangle hole for libertarians and pentagon greens, etc but this still is not accurate. I describe myself as a libertarian but I am also an enviromentalist and internationalist. So not only do I not fit in the round or square hole, I do not really fit in the triangle hole that has been added.

But because we have two parties, people insist on thinking we can be measured on one axis e.g. the consevative vs. liberal. To be meaningful in any way, we need to add a lot more axes:
Fiscally prudent or not.
Civil libertarian or not
Welfare state or not
Isolationist vs. internationalist
Secular vs. religious
Laissez faire vs. regulatory
Environmentalist or not

CBL