IDF General Sued For "Targeted Killings"

[webfusion]

In the USA, a lawsuit has been filed against ex-IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon for war crimes and other human rights violations, arising from a long-ago artillery-shelling incident at Kfar Kana in Lebanon.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/658545.html

This is actually the second case filed in US courts involving the IDF targeting terrorists and killing civilians in the process...

Last week, CCR and the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR) filed a class action lawsuit against Avi Dichter, the former head of the Shin Bet domestic security service.

The lawsuit was submitted on behalf of the family members of 14 Palestinians who were killed when the IDF dropped a one-ton bomb on a Gaza neighborhood in July 2002 during the targeted killing of Hamas leader Salah Shehadeh. The compensation sought in that case is estimated in the millions of dollars.

We had a long thread recently here about whether this kind of action was actually "targeting of civilians" and I would like to discuss what, if any, legal remedies can be pursued against the terrorists who instigate IDF responses (as we are seeing currently in Gaza, for instance)?

Can the terrorists be sued? Where? In what jurisdiction?

 

[Manny]

Can the terrorists be sued? Where? In what jurisdiction?

In the US. From a practical standpoint, I think most of the suits are brought in the Southern District of New York (we've got judges here who are experts in this sort of thing). Indeed, the PA's US assets are currently frozen precisely because of just such a suit.

I'll have to do more research to find if US law provides for suits the other way.

 

[Skeptic]

Of course, suing for targeted killing is admitting that the IDF does not randomly target civilians, but tries to hit specific terrorists.

But logic was never the strong point of these guys, was it?

 

[Chaos]

Of course, suing for targeted killing is admitting that the IDF does not randomly target civilians, but tries to hit specific terrorists.

But logic was never the strong point of these guys, was it?

As you could have found out if you had read the quote provided in the OP, the lawsuit is about "targetted killings [of terrorists] in which civilians were killed".

Besides, how "targetted" is it to drop a one ton bomb into a residential area? A sniper is "targetted". A guided missile is more or less "targetted". But a ****ing one ton bomb?

 

[The Don]

Besides, how "targetted" is it to drop a one ton bomb into a residential area? A sniper is "targetted". A guided missile is more or less "targetted". But a ****ing one ton bomb?

It's just a case of terrorists using "civilians" as human shields and/or because the "civilians" haven't given up the terrorists in their midst it implies implicit support which makes them terrorists and thus legitimate targets.

Or some such horsesh!t

 

[Skeptic]

As you could have found out if you had read the quote provided in the OP, the lawsuit is about "targetted killings [of terrorists] in which civilians were killed".

Besides, how "targetted" is it to drop a one ton bomb into a residential area? A sniper is "targetted". A guided missile is more or less "targetted". But a ****ing one ton bomb?

Yes, but the big hue and cry on this forum is that the IDF deliberately and randomly targets civilians, not that they also get killed with "targeted killings".

Sorry, bud. You kill jews, you don't get to choose what weapons they use to kill you back.

 

[webfusion]

Southern District of NY

Indeed, the targets of the lawsuit are now living in the USA (Ya'alon and Dichter) which affords the plaintiffs a chance to raise the flag of "war crimes and human rights violations" over that New York courthouse.

We know that civilians who were killed in the conflict already have compensation paid to them ( see THREAD here ) so maybe these lawsuits are an attempt to enlarge the overall dispensation funds, or will the awards go directly just to the individuals named in the suits? Also, Lebanon suffered many civilian casualties in the course of the IDF operations there, (operations that Israel pursued against a plethora of terrorists) so how come only the one Kfar Kana incident is being singled-out for legal scrutiny?

I can see some merit in such a suit, if the IDF had started shelling suddenly on one clear morning, with absolutely no incoming fire to direct back at. If the IDF had made it their mission that day to devastate the Lebanese village, for sport, I could understand the lawsuit.

But that isn't what happened. The terrorists in Lebanon were firing across the border at Israeli civilians at random, just for sport, as is their policy, sending inaccurate Katyusha missiles (more range than the QASSEMS being fired today from Gaza) and mortars crashing into Israeli towns and farms. The terrorists were intentionally targeting Israeli civilians, and in response, the IDF acted.

That is called, ladies and gentlemen, self-defense.

Case closed.

(((( eta -- the one-ton bomb issue can be discussed independently, and not mixed together with the Kfar Kana situation, or perhaps it may be discussed in the same light; your choice which way to go... ))))

 

[WildCat]

As you could have found out if you had read the quote provided in the OP, the lawsuit is about "targetted killings [of terrorists] in which civilians were killed".

Besides, how "targetted" is it to drop a one ton bomb into a residential area? A sniper is "targetted". A guided missile is more or less "targetted". But a ****ing one ton bomb?

Is Israel allowed to defend herself? Apparently, if you think they do it must be how, exactly? Would they be allowed to invade and occupy Lebanon by Chaos's standards? Or are they expected to just pull out of "occupied Palestine" and go back to Europe, the place that has given them so much love in the past? Ooh, that just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside...

This isn't a case of law enforcement, it's a war, which some here apparently think can be prosecuted w/o any civilian casualties. If not, then clarify.

The sniper comment was funny! That must be one hell of a long-range rifle to kill someone in another country!

 

[Chaos]

Yes, but the big hue and cry on this forum is that the IDF deliberately and randomly targets civilians, not that they also get killed with "targeted killings".

It is not what the OP of this thread is about, so unless you intend to derail this thread, you should stick to the content of the OP.

Of course, judging from your posts, you do indeed intend to derail this thread, turning it into another "They disagree with Israel! They are evil jew-hating anti-semites!" flamefest.

Sorry, bud. You kill jews, you don't get to choose what weapons they use to kill you back.

Funny. I would have expected that people who did NOT kill jews to be able to reasonably expect not to be killed. But apparently such a way of thinking does not exist in minds like yours.

 

[Skeptic]

Is Israel allowed to defend herself? Apparently, if you think they do it must be how, exactly?

Why, by making sure, in advance, the weapons they use meet with approval and moral okay of civilians 10,000 miles away who've never been in combat or danger in their lives.

Besides, how "targetted" is it to drop a one ton bomb into a residential area? A sniper is "targetted". A guided missile is more or less "targetted". But a ****ing one ton bomb?

Tell me, Chaos--by your standards, was the allies' bombing of Germany in WWII, for example, an awful war crime? If you're consistent, it should, for it was the use not of one one-ton bomb, but of millions of tons of bombs, who targeted civilians just as much as the military.

Perhaps we should round up the surviving aviators and put them on trial. I don't discount the awful illegal war-crimes the IDF is committing by bombing civilians, but, if that's the problem, shouldn't we get the REAL criminals--the USAF and RAF--first?

What's that? It was justified because it was a war of survival against a genocidal regime bent on wiping them off the face of the earth?

Ah.... exactly.

 

[WildCat]

It is not what the OP of this thread is about, so unless you intend to derail this thread, you should stick to the content of the OP.

Of course, judging from your posts, you do indeed intend to derail this thread, turning it into another "They disagree with Israel! They are evil jew-hating anti-semites!" flamefest.



Funny. I would have expected that people who did NOT kill jews to be able to reasonably expect not to be killed. But apparently such a way of thinking does not exist in minds like yours.

Hmmmm, nope, I still don't see what PM Chaos would do when rockets from beyond the border start blowing up in Chaos-land. Surely, you must have a response that would not have the slightest chance of killing those innicent civilians?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Is Israel allowed to defend herself? Apparently, if you think they do it must be how, exactly?

Why, by making sure, in advance, the weapons they use meet with approval and moral okay of civilians 10,000 miles away who've never been in combat or danger in their lives.

Besides, how "targetted" is it to drop a one ton bomb into a residential area? A sniper is "targetted". A guided missile is more or less "targetted". But a ****ing one ton bomb?

Tell me, Chaos--by your standards, was the allies' bombing of Germany in WWII, for example, an awful war crime? If you're consistent, it should, for it was the use not of one one-ton bomb, but of millions of tons of bombs, who targeted civilians just as much as the military.

Perhaps we should round up the surviving aviators and put them on trial. I don't discount the awful illegal war-crimes the IDF is committing by bombing civilians, but, if that's the problem, shouldn't we get the REAL criminals--the USAF and RAF--first?

What's that? It was justified because it was a war of survival against a genocidal regime bent on wiping them off the face of the earth?

Ah.... exactly.

Have you even read into the firebombing of Dresden? Are you away that a conflagaration at 1500 degrees C roared in the heart of the city, and that german civilians were suffocated by the lack of oxygen, roasted alive in their bunkers, or sucked out of their homes by the air rushing towards it? Are you remotely aware of the magnitude of the bombing campaign on Germany during WWII? Approximately 30,000 people were killed in the course of two days of bombing. 24,000 building were destroyed, representing all but a few thousand buildings in Dresden. A total of 400,000 german civilans were killed in allied bombing campagns targeted specifically at civilians. We got off for it, vae victis.

The legitimacy of the bombing is hardly the open and shut "justified" case you make it out to be.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Hmmmm, nope, I still don't see what PM Chaos would do when rockets from beyond the border start blowing up in Chaos-land.

People sit back in their comfy chairs, in their safe neighborhoods, posting on message boards, completely unafraid of islamist rockets, mortars and suicide bombers. Then they pass judgement on the people who do have to endure the rockets, mortars and suicide bombers of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. I see it every day. It's no big deal because theat is exactly what it is.

It's just a case of terrorists using "civilians" as human shields and/or because the "civilians" haven't given up the terrorists in their midst it implies implicit support which makes them terrorists and thus legitimate targets.

Or some such horsesh!t

Hamas leader Salah Shehadeh was a known terrorist who was reponsible for many Hamas terror attacks which killed and maimed hundreds of innocent Israeli civilians between 2000 & 2002. Every effort was made to arrest Salah Shehadeh but he had popular Palestinian support and spent much of his time underground because he knew Israel wanted him.

After several attempts to arrest him, and ZERO attempts by the Palestinian Authority to arrest him, it became known to Shin Bet that Salah Shehadeh was spending the night in a Hamas-bought safe house. The PA knew it was a Hamas safe house and the Israelis knew it was a Hamas safe house. So Israel dropped a bomb on the terrorist leader's head killing him and neutralizing a known threat.

While it is "horsesh!t" to you The Don it is life and death to Israelis. Sadly to neutralize the threat of a Salah Shehadeh, a violent islamist terrorist leader and a known murderer, it cost 14 innocent Palestinian lives, a tragedy, but that tragedy saved hundreds of other lives cuz Shehadeh was now DEAD.

 

[Manny]

The legitimacy of the bombing is hardly the open and shut "justified" case you make it out to be.

Well, sort of, and that's kind of the point. Scholars and college students, safe in their classrooms and speaking English and adopting the stances of philosophers whose works might have been wiped off the face of the earth, can debate it. Judges would laugh a suit out of court.

During wartime or similar operations, there arises a gap between what safe elites feel is "good" and what a reasonable judge rules is legal.

 

[Chaos]

Have you even read into the firebombing of Dresden? Are you away that a conflagaration at 1500 degrees C roared in the heart of the city, and that german civilians were suffocated by the lack of oxygen, roasted alive in their bunkers, or sucked out of their homes by the air rushing towards it? Are you remotely aware of the magnitude of the bombing campaign on Germany during WWII? Approximately 30,000 people were killed in the course of two days of bombing. 24,000 building were destroyed, representing all but a few thousand buildings in Dresden. A total of 400,000 german civilans were killed in allied bombing campagns targeted specifically at civilians. We got off for it, vae victis.

The legitimacy of the bombing is hardly the open and shut "justified" case you make it out to be.

That issue has been dealt with LONG ago. They were all nazis. They all deserved it. Yep. Every single new-born baby was a major nazi war-criminal who fully deserved every bit of their cruel, painful death. Totally.

At least, that was the resident right wing´s position last time someone mentioned this.

There is no moral relativity. There is only black and white. Good and evil. The side who is always right and the side who is always wrong. And the side the resident right wing here is on is automatically the good guys. Case closed. Get used to it.

 

[Giz]

That issue has been dealt with LONG ago. They were all nazis. They all deserved it. Yep. Every single new-born baby was a major nazi war-criminal who fully deserved every bit of their cruel, painful death. Totally.

At least, that was the resident right wing´s position last time someone mentioned this.

There is no moral relativity. There is only black and white. Good and evil. The side who is always right and the side who is always wrong. And the side the resident right wing here is on is automatically the good guys. Case closed. Get used to it.

The WW2 bombing could have been better targeted but if you try to compare the actual bombing offensive with the results of no bomber offensive then you have to accept that the bombing played a material role in allowing the Axis to be overrun as "easily" as they were.

You dont have to believe that evertything is black and white, just that sometimes choices may have to be made that are less than ideal in order to avoid a worse fate, and also that the "root cause"/the people to blame may have been the Third Reich's leadership/The voters who propelled them to power - NOT the RAF/USAF.

 

[Chaos]

The WW2 bombing could have been better targeted but if you try to compare the actual bombing offensive with the results of no bomber offensive then you have to accept that the bombing played a material role in allowing the Axis to be overrun as "easily" as they were.

You dont have to believe that evertything is black and white, just that sometimes choices may have to be made that are less than ideal in order to avoid a worse fate, and also that the "root cause"/the people to blame may have been the Third Reich's leadership/The voters who propelled them to power - NOT the RAF/USAF.

Hey, what I posted is not my position. It is the position of the guys who are wielding the big "anti-semite" sledgehammers.

Besides, said guys - one of them especially - will immediately go Mr Hyde anyone ever tries to explain something. "THEY" ARE EVIL, that´s all anyone must ever want to know, any attempt to go beyond that is sympathizing with terrorists. Remember that: you must not explain. You must accept what they say, unless you want to be a jew-hating anti-semite terrorist sympathizer.

 

[Cleon]

You must accept what they say, unless you want to be a jew-hating anti-semite terrorist sympathizer.

You forgot "communist."

 

[Chaos]

You forgot "communist."

Sorry. I´m getting old.

 

[CapelDodger]

Sorry. I´m getting old.

Like all commies.

Get a new lease of life : become a humanity-hating tree-hugger. That's where the action is these days.