ID:ers not being killed... yet

Castor

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I was just listening to the latest episode of "Focus on the Family", the annoyingly loony right wing christian show, and the guest of the day was Ben Stein. He was doing his usual whiny shtick about the movie Expelled (you may have heard of it) when he said something that really knocked me off my seat. Apparently, for all the harrassment that intelligent design proponents are being subjected to, they are not being killed... yet.

Here is a transcript:

James Dobson: "What is happening to the people who dare to question orthodoxy?"
Ben Stein: "Well, they get fired, they lose their grants, they are kicked out of their offices, they are kicked out of their jobs alltogether, they don't get new jobs, there are hate campaigns against them on the internet, there are hate campaigns against them in their mail.
We interviewed quite a few of these people, who were doing great, whose lives and careers were doing great. And then they dare just to mention the possibility that intelligent design could have a role in the evolution of organic matter, and suddenly, they are dead. You know what its like? Its like in 1984 where if you were if you were thought to have... mention... critical of Big Brother, if you even were possibly guilty of thoughtcrime, you were dead. And... these people, theyre not literally dead, they are not being killed, at least so far.
But their careers are dead, and they are in terrible, terrible trouble and their lives are ruined, sometimes their marriages are ruined, it's a monstrous campaign that goes on against them..."

It's so weird to hear these people complaining about thoughtcrime and Big Brother... I mean, do they even know what their religions teach? And keep in mind that James Dobson presumably believes that Ben Stein, being jewish, will be going to hell when he dies. My head hurts.

Listen to the whole thing, if you are a glutton for punishment:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Focus_on_the_Family/archives.asp?bcd=2008-4-7
 
There was a time when scientists (among others) were put to death by the Church for having the nerve to challenge established doctrines. Religious fundamentalists such as the ID-iots are probably assuming that everyone else is just as crazy and violent as they are, therefore they think they would be subjected to the same punishment that they would carry out on non-believers if they had their way. Either that or this is just another example of getting carried away with the argument from persecution, which seems to be the trend here given the themes of the movie.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but does anyone else think it ought to be subjected to the "Mystery Science Theater 3000" treatment? ;)
 
That'd be a lot of people to genocide: most of America, the Middle-East, Islam, Native Americans, and many other cultures.

Heck; there would be almost no on left on earth if people who thinks the Earth looks designed were killed.
 
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Oh Please! For the last time, spare me the "oppressed Christian" BS! Let's consider the facts:
  1. Christianity is the majority religion in the U.S..
  2. Atheists only make up less than 10% of the population (that we know of).
  3. Studies show that when it comes to religious/social minorities, atheists are THE most despised. (Examples of that hatred: D'Sousa, Coulter, O'Reilly, Hannity, Bush Sr., etc.; and closer to home: DOC, Radrook, Plumjam, Stone Island, Tai Chi, etc.)
If anyone has to worry about running afoul of "orthodoxy" and face discrimination it's atheists, not the religionists!
 
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I think it's shocking that someone should lose their job and livelihood because they don't understand the basics of their chosen career.

Before you know it, accountants that won't do arithmetic, lawyers that haven't studied law and doctors with no medical training will be losing their jobs too.

Where will it all end?

Some bloody do-gooder will be demanding that my local burger-flipper actually washed more than once a week. OR LOSE THEIR JOB!!!!

Tyranny of the worst kind.

It couldn't be worse...




...if it were true.

.
 
I guess there's no real need for a hypothesis to make this more sensible, but it's possible that since he mentions "hate campaigns" on the Internet and in their mail, he's heard of someone threatening one of these people in those contexts. I hardly think there's any controversial issue that lacks heated debates on the Internet where death threats are thrown about, and it's not like all the people on our side are necessarily nice or smart.

If they take everything read on the Internet seriously, they are going to have to be afraid of a great many things.
 
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Ben Stein: "Well, they get fired, they lose their grants, they are kicked out of their offices, they are kicked out of their jobs alltogether, they don't get new jobs, there are hate campaigns against them on the internet, there are hate campaigns against them in their mail.
We interviewed quite a few of these people, who were doing great, whose lives and careers were doing great. And then they dare just to mention the possibility that intelligent design could have a role in the evolution of organic matter, and suddenly, they are dead. You know what its like? Its like in 1984 where if you were if you were thought to have... mention... critical of Big Brother, if you even were possibly guilty of thought crime, you were dead. And... these people, they're not literally dead, they are not being killed, at least so far.
But their careers are dead, and they are in terrible, terrible trouble and their lives are ruined, sometimes their marriages are ruined, it's a monstrous campaign that goes on against them..."
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What really upsets me is that this tirade fits atheists coming out perfectly. Typical fundie 'take what the atheists say and turn it around 180 degrees' tactics.

Nothing new, though, as far as I understand it. Ask a (Godwin alert:eye-poppi!) Neo-Nazi he'll tell you it's the Jews that are the aggressor and the Nazis that are the enemy. Ask a KKK member and he'll tell you the Blacks are out to take over America. It seems to me that the oppression/persecution card is one very often played by oppressive groups and others who want to rally support for their cause - nothing gets the masses battle-ready more than a cry of 'our way of life is threatened, unite against the aggressors!'.

Same thing is happening in Norway (1.5 million Christians, 4.7 million people total). Trying to take mandatory prayer out of elementary schools - 'anti-Christian'. Trying to take mandatory church attendance out of elementary school - 'anti-Christian'. Obeying orders to follow human rights by making elementary school religious classes objective rather than propaganda sessions arguing for Christianity - you guessed it: a wholesale attack on Christianity. Worst thing is, most of the people spouting this nonsense are not even fundamentalists, they're moderates who actually believe what they're saying. Disgusting.
 

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they lose their grants
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Er, Stein? That's not the IDers. That's the brave people who dare stand up to criticize the commie myth of global warming. Get your myths straight, will you:rolleyes:?
 
Silentknight said:
There was a time when scientists (among others) were put to death by the Church for having the nerve to challenge established doctrines. Religious fundamentalists such as the ID-iots are probably assuming that everyone else is just as crazy and violent as they are, therefore they think they would be subjected to the same punishment that they would carry out on non-believers if they had their way. Either that or this is just another example of getting carried away with the argument from persecution, which seems to be the trend here given the themes of the movie.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but does anyone else think it ought to be subjected to the "Mystery Science Theater 3000" treatment? ;)
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Hell yes:D:D:D
 
You know... it is not only an insult to atheists, it is really an insult to all oppressed people all over the world, who face REAL persecution, REAL life-and-death struggles. The fact the Ben Stein, two super-rich Americans who live in ridiculous luxury...

... look, I'm almost screaming mad at these two jackasses. Think about this: one of them has an international religious media empire. The other is a hugely successful entertainer and political operative, who has spent the last six months plugging his latest piece of political garbage. The idea that either one of them, from their respective lofty positions, feels at all threatened by the idea of persecution is patently ridiculous.
 
I wonder if Stein believes the fairy tales he's being told about ID persecution? I mean, I wonder if those stories reinforce his existing religious rationalizations or if he was really just duped by the ID crowd?
 
Silentknight said:
There was a time when scientists (among others) were put to death by the Church for having the nerve to challenge established doctrines. Religious fundamentalists such as the ID-iots are probably assuming that everyone else is just as crazy and violent as they are, therefore they think they would be subjected to the same punishment that they would carry out on non-believers if they had their way. Either that or this is just another example of getting carried away with the argument from persecution, which seems to be the trend here given the themes of the movie.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but does anyone else think it ought to be subjected to the "Mystery Science Theater 3000" treatment? ;)
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Oh yesssss!:) Great idea.
Actually, I suspect your are right about the "assuming that everyone else is just as crazy" theory. It sort of makes sense, including booting PZ out of the theater.
 
skeptigirl said:
I wonder if Stein believes the fairy tales he's being told about ID persecution? I mean, I wonder if those stories reinforce his existing religious rationalizations or if he was really just duped by the ID crowd?
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I think he a) wants to believe it, b) is conditioned by his religious beliefs to accept false persecution stories as true, and c) has a political leaning that already considers academics and educators to be "the enemy".
 
JoeEllison said:
... look, I'm almost screaming mad at these two jackasses. Think about this: one of them has an international religious media empire. The other is a hugely successful entertainer and political operative, who has spent the last six months plugging his latest piece of political garbage. The idea that either one of them, from their respective lofty positions, feels at all threatened by the idea of persecution is patently ridiculous.
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Ahhh, but the average religious conservative voter--raised to believe the unquestionable superiority of their nation and religion--are the one who have been convinced they're being threatened. Whether Stein and Co. actually agree with that idea or it's just a cynical ploy for financial or political gain , they have tapped into the anxieties of a significant segment of American society. A segment that feels that nefarious forces (e.g. "liberals," "atheists," "leftists," "secularists," etc.) are attacking the very source (i.e. religion) of all order, freedom (oddly enough), and morality in human civilization.
 
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