• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

I worry about Apple.

Oleron

Muse
Joined
Feb 17, 2004
Messages
940
Like most IT guys 95% of my work is on Windows based systems. I have a working knowledge of Unix and Linux but I'm not called on to use it much.
I even know Novell and VMS to a limited degree.

One thing I don't know about is Apple.

It has been 13 years since I even touched an Apple Mac and, while I am regarded as a bit handy on Windows, I could make a complete fool of myself if someone asked me to fix a problem on a Mac.

This worries me. What if Apple came out with a PC tomorrow that was the desktop equivalent of the iPod? Everyone would own one and I wouldn't know anything about them. I would be (shock, horror) an ordinary USER!

While this scenario is unlikely, it hasn't escaped my notice that Apple have been churning out some stunningly desirable desktop and laptop models for some time now. I'll share a secret - I'm starting to really want one!

If I, a dyed in the wool windows user, am starting to want one then perhaps a revolution isn't that far off after all?
 
Well it is still irrational to choose a Mac..... ;)

I do have to say I find it hard to see what would be the thing that would make Macs a true "contender" again.

Yes apple has at long last created a credible OS that is “competitive” albeit not quite as user friendly as some would have you believe but still quite user-friendly, it’s very pleasant to look at and their ability to design nice looking PCs is unmatched but they still have the problem that their OS is tied to their hardware (officially and legally) which is a bottle neck. Then again they’ve resolved one of the major problems they did have regarding hardware e.g. performance by switching to Intel processors.

But I still think Windows has such an installed base that it would need something truly revolutionary for Apple to be able break through and become that contender.

(I've used one of the latest Vista (what a CRAP name) builds and whilst it looks nice in places, OSX still look so much nicer. MS has a long way to go and to date its “look and feel” has always lagged behind every other major OS so I’ve no confidence that it will end up being really, really nice. Never mind I’ll soon skin it like I’ve been doing since Windows for Workgroups 3.1!)
 
They have come a long way. Most popular games have Mac versions. Most of the main office packages have Mac versions.
Many hardware vendors have mac hardware available - ati and nvidia spring to mind.
2 things they have to conquer - price and business apps.

Price is obvious and a move to x86 chips would go a long way to combat this.

By business apps I mean that most business have some kind of financial/ERP software that runs on virtually all the PC's in the workplace. The front ends of these almost always are designed for windows (some have linux versions). People have mentioned that Citrix is a good way of running these apps on a mac but many businesses don't want the extra management burden of running a Citrix farm.
Also most businesses nowadays are heavily reliant on MS- specific network infrastructure such as NT domains and active directory. Mac's, as I understand it, can only use a Samba-style authentication method.

Or have things moved further than I am aware of?
 
Darat said:
Well it is still irrational to choose a Mac..... ;)

I know you have a smiley there but I still repeat the reason why I bought a Mac laptop:

It is the simplest way to get a unix laptop that just works.
 
Apple hopes the mini is the iPod of the PC world. I've got one and I wouldn't say they're wrong.

I've done PC tech support for 15 years. I've owned a Mac at home for all of those years. Those who blow off the Mac interface as "pretty" simply don't realize how much better it is than the windows interface. It just works better and makes far more sense -- and this is beyond the Explorer/Finder this is in all applications. Mac apps, unless directly ported from Windows, usually work better than the windows version.

The move to a FreeBSD based OS was the smartest thing Apple has done. Mac OS X is probably the most interoperable PC on the planent. It can integrate into Active Directory on Windows, mount windows network shares, UNIX NFS shares, Mac AFP shares.

Being tied to the hardware is both a plus and a minus. On the plus side since they control the hardware so much it's much easier for them to support the computers and add new features to the hardware. Apple was the first manufacturer to go legacy free (USB only for keyboard/mouse, no floppy drive) something many other manufacturers haven't been able to do and must still support old crufty hardware. Hardware costs help support the cost of developing maintaing the OS. If there were no hardware costs helping out then Apple would have to charge far more than $129 for the OS (at least upgrades cost that now) and would not be able to compete against Microsoft.

The experiment in Mac clones failed for apple. They were losing customers and sales and not making money. Perhaps after moving to Intel chips they will re-evaluate the policy (there is a conspiracy theory that Apple isn't going to make running Mac OS on non-Apple hardware TOO difficult at first, just to get people addicted to the OS.)

The minus side is obvious -- it takes more convincing to get people to change OS and hardware when they may be stuck with something they don't like. The move to Intel might help this -- you could always go back to XP on your Apple machine....

As far as business apps go -- I'm seeing more and more of this moving to the web. The real fight is to make sure your business app developers develop in standards compliant way so the web browser doesn't matter. Mandatory IE requirements are 99% of the time unrequired and 100% of the time cause more problems then not (usually when all the hacks you did to fix IE issues break on the next IE upgrade.)
 
Oleron said:
Also most businesses nowadays are heavily reliant on MS- specific network infrastructure such as NT domains and active directory. Mac's, as I understand it, can only use a Samba-style authentication method.

Or have things moved further than I am aware of?

Mac's can integrate into Active Directory and use the (developed on UNIX) Kerberos authentication if required. This has been sort of available for quite some time but is officially supported in 10.4 (latest release).

Mac's can also authenticate using just about any LDAP system you can come up with, plus NIS.
 
Oleron said:
Like most IT guys 95% of my work is on Windows based systems. I have a working knowledge of Unix and Linux but I'm not called on to use it much.
I even know Novell and VMS to a limited degree.

One thing I don't know about is Apple.

It has been 13 years since I even touched an Apple Mac and, while I am regarded as a bit handy on Windows, I could make a complete fool of myself if someone asked me to fix a problem on a Mac.

OSX is basically BSD with a Mach kernel, and the Mac-specific configuration files are XML. What's so difficult about that?
 
Re: Re: Re: I worry about Apple.

kevin said:

Yeah, but launchd is easy to learn, and frameworks are like dynamic libraries and packages, except that they work.

Anyway, if you know several UN*X variations, at the system level, OSX is within the regoin they cover in feature space. Once you get used to bundles and the fact that many of the directories are hidden from the user on the GUI level, it's pretty easy to hack.
 
I like what I'm hearing here, things have obviously moved on a bit since I last had a look.

I think what I need to do is pick up a cheap mac (!?) and stick it on my network to see what I can and can't do with it.

So, how do I get hold of a modern mac at rock-bottom prices?
2nd-user OK.

BTW I am based in UK.
 
Oleron said:
I like what I'm hearing here, things have obviously moved on a bit since I last had a look.

I think what I need to do is pick up a cheap mac (!?) and stick it on my network to see what I can and can't do with it.

So, how do I get hold of a modern mac at rock-bottom prices?
2nd-user OK.

BTW I am based in UK.

Couple of points, you want one that can run the latest version of OS X so check that out first.

I would also recommend at least 512Mb of RAM, either buy one with that or be prepared to upgrade.

You could go down the route I did and get a Mac Mini, I just love mine for the design and the fact such a little box is a fully featured PC.

It is interesting that since buying my Mac Mini (March of this year) my view hasn’t really changed about Macs. I still maintain that OS X isn't as user friendly as its reputation would have people believe (my original views on this were as a result of training people on both Macs and PCs back in the good old say e.g. Windows 3.1 and whatever Mac OS version(s) that was at the time). It is frustrating to try to get it to connect to a wide range of hardware compared to the PC, now this isn’t necessarily an inherent problem with the Mac but Mac support for many devices is not very good from the hardware vendor's side, plus there are still some major issues for mainstream users (printing a borderless photo for example!). A good example is that my PCs are connected to a wireless router (but via Ethernet) during the night the router seems to have died to I've had to connect the PC and the Mac directly to the my ADSL modem/router, the PC (in the middle of running a test run for the upgrade of this forum) picked up where it left off without a glitch (apart from the firewall stepping in and asking did I want to connect to the "new network"). However it took me about 15 minutes to persuade the Mac to use the other router, nothing complex, nothing too difficult but just not quite as "plug and play".

The pre-installed package (i-whatever), well I like iTunes for the simple reason they've kept it simple, iPhoto is a complete joke, slow, cumbersome and not user friendly at all, the rest are rather hit and miss.

(I do like Pages - it's like going back to what word processors used to be like around the days of the Atari ST and Amiga, and I mean that as praise. Keynote presentations just look so much nicer then PowerPoint ones, even if PowerPoint does have more “features”)

However I do forgive the Mac a lot because it is nice, the only bit that Windows does nicer is display text on the LCD screens I use (I presume that is because of Cleartype).

I set my Mother up with a Windows XP PC a couple of years ago and she's managed well with that (not bad considering it's her first PC and she is in her sixties!), given a choice however I would have given her a Mac, because I would be confident that once configured it would do what she needs with no intervention from her. That hasn’t been the case for the Windows XP PC, especially with some of the required updates to the OS (like service pack 2).

It's really back to the old "horses for courses", but as I say currently the Mac doesn’t offer anything revolutionary that I think is required now to get people to move over to the Mac/OS X combination.

Perhaps if Apple did release a stand-alone cheap upgrade for the millions of PCs already installed with a Windows variant then it could make an impact, however I just don’t think Apple would have the capability to produce such an upgrade. (It's not a dig at Apple but the backwards compatibility that MS has maintained with the various Windows is a truly incredible feat, I still run an old complied Qbasic program from MS-DOS days in Windows XP. Albeit maintaining the backwards compatibility has also caused quite a few problems, for Apple to duplicate that from a standing start just wouldn’t be practically possible.)


(Edited for words.)
 
Apple has also historically partnered with Insignia Designs to offer virtual PCs, and in the Unix world, there's WinE, so legacy compatibility might be there... Dunno.
 
Oleron said:
I like what I'm hearing here, things have obviously moved on a bit since I last had a look.

I think what I need to do is pick up a cheap mac (!?) and stick it on my network to see what I can and can't do with it.

So, how do I get hold of a modern mac at rock-bottom prices?
2nd-user OK.

Check eBay and check the the Apple website for what the most recent OS supports.

Also consider the price of OSX; you'll probably want to install the latest (Tiger). You might consider getting a Mac Mini. It starts at $499 and comes with Tiger. I don't know UK prices. It doesn't have a keyboard or monitor, though--you'll have to supply those yourself. But if you're like me, you have old but somewhat serviceable VGA monitors out the ying-yang, and USB keyboards and mouses are cheap. An LCD monitor is preferable, because the text dithering algorithm on the Mac is optimized for LCD monitors.

You don't get the development tools with that, though you do get them with OSX in the store. However, you can download them for free. They're sweet. Easily what you'd have to pay Microsoft $500 to get.

Check http://www.apple.com/macmini/ for specs. Don't worry that it's only 1.25 GHz; that's plenty. I would go for the SuperDrive, though, if you want to burn DVDs.
 
I wouldn't worry about apple (referring to the op topic) I just gave them a truckload of money for my new mobile studio setup....








Ahh it's nice to be on this side of the fence....
 

Back
Top Bottom