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I will be asked where I get my morals.

Ceritus

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Jul 28, 2005
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I go to court today for visitation of my 9 month old daughter where I am fighting for it. My ex-girlfriend wants to deny me visitation mainly because I am atheist and when I go on the stand today her lawyer will most likely ask me where I get my morals from since I am atheist. I know there is a very long scientific explanation for it but I am looking for something short and sweet that I could reply. I could answer it was the way I was brought up but my mother is catholic and then he could use that against me saying if I help raise this child in an atheist household how could anyone be sure that I instill good morals into my daughter. The ironic part is my ex's family is very christian and her brother is in jail for 30+ years and grew up in a religious household. I on the otherhand have just a few speeding tickets from about 2 years ago but that is the extent to my record.
 
Is this in the US? That wouldn't be allowed in this state. Tell them you get your morals from your parents and your upbringing anyway. Why would you have to learn religion and morals from your Catholic parents? Why couldn't you learn what's right or wrong just by itself? People who would ask such a question in a custody hearing aren't going to understand the natural science answers anyway.

The other thing if/when it comes up is, tell them you don't see why someone needs to be afraid of going to hell to know it isn't right to lie cheat steal or kill someone. You don't think those things are right and God and hell have nothing to do with it.

I can't imagine why anyone thinks morals come from religion anyway. It's such a bogus claim.
 
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Yes in Oklahoma. Also I understand they wouldn't understand natural science answers which is why I am looking for something short and sweet. I keep mulling over it, I am thinking something along the lines of "the same place we all do, our conscience". If asked to expound on that I think I could reply something along the lines of instead of doing the right thing in fear of retribution I do it out of the simple sincerity of just wanting to.
 
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Ceritus said:
I go to court today for visitation of my 9 month old daughter where I am fighting for it. My ex-girlfriend wants to deny me visitation mainly because I am atheist and when I go on the stand today her lawyer will most likely ask me where I get my morals from since I am atheist.
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Why are oyu discussing this with us rather than your lawyer - and why only now?

Why will you most likely be asked for the source of your morals? Is that a common thing in suchg cases? (me = clueless)

I know there is a very long scientific explanation for it but I am looking for something short and sweet that I could reply. I could answer it was the way I was brought up but my mother is catholic and then he could use that against me saying if I help raise this child in an atheist household how could anyone be sure that I instill good morals into my daughter.
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And you would deserve no better.

The ironic part is my ex's family is very christian and her brother is in jail for 30+ years and grew up in a religious household. I on the otherhand have just a few speeding tickets from about 2 years ago but that is the extent to my record.
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I would discuss bringing this up with my lawyer if the other side invites such arguments.

Personally, if I had to, I would try and explain that I have "good morals", what they look like and how they influence my life. If you defend that you got your morlas from this source or that despite being an atheist you are granting them a major point of their argument, IMHO.

I think it is important to know whwere this is taking place. Where can atheism be used to deny a parent visitation rights so bluntly and obviously, anyway?

And again: Discuss this with a lawyer that knows what is likely to happen in court!

The short and sweet version - though this is likely not suitable to bring up there - is that religion prescrives good values just as well as bad ones. Everyone relies on a seperate idea of morality to chose between the two. So, unless your ex is in favour of stoning people to death for various sins, she is not deriving her moral code from her religion, even though her religion may well play a part in the process.
 
Holy moly! I am staggered at this scenario - how can a court make a judgement against atheism? There is no evidence suggesting atheists are less moral, what planet is this? Planet Dark Ages?

Anyway, that rant doesn't help you. Firstly, I would like to say how deeply sorry I am for your situation and that your visitation rights need to be defended because of your atheism.

Secondly, regarding something to say, I would make sure to keep it all positive and to avoid bashing religion if you can. Important points to mention:

1) you will ensure your child is free to choose the religion of her choice and will respect her beliefs and worship habits

2) regarding morals, you will teach your daughter what you yourself, and any good person, aspires to, to be a good, kind person, to help others and not break the law of the land. You will also instill in her the understanding that all life is precious and people and animals should be treated with respect, care and kindness.

Or a variation on that. In other words, rather than trying to defend your atheism (which is pointless in this scenario), demonstrate that you are a moral person. If you show that you know what morals are and agree with them, then there won't be any need to get into a theological discussion. And consult a lawyer!!!!
 
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Maybe it won't be as bad as you think. Perhaps the girl thinks she has grounds but the judge won't agree.

My experience has been very mixed. Judges have too much leeway for their personal opinions. Look at Judge Moore with his 10 Commandments fight. On the other hand, the judge that ruled against ID in the Dover trial was a Bush appointee. And surprise, he/she? ruled for science and against teaching the Bible in school science classes.

You just never know but I would hope most judges don't consider a parents' religion or lack of it relevant in custody and visitation hearings.
 
Thanks for some of the ideas guys and gals. I am hoping this judge is rational and won't allow this to go too far. court in T minus 5 hours 38 min, I am so nervous.
 
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Again, talk to your lawyer about this. *nag*

Are there any good examples that you could talk about that would demonstrate that you are a moral person? Charity work, etc?

Perhaps situations where you had to set an example for your daughter - even though that seems somewhat unlikely at 9 months.

Are there any specific points you dissagreed over with your ex? What is it she would view as immoral about you (or claim was immoral)? Other than your atheism, of course. Maybe you can show that there are differences and dissagreements, but that these didnt mean one of you was immoral. I am not asure how riskey this would be, though.

And good luck.
 
My answer would be this:

Because I don't believe in an afterlife, I believe this is our only shot, and we have to get it right. I don't think you can atone later.

So it is our absolute obligation to take care of our bodies and minds by not abusing drugs and alcohol, for example. It is our absolute obligation to do our best to get along with our neighbors, and others in this world, and that means being honest, being fair, being kind, not harming others for selfish reasons.

Examples through history, and today, show us the destructive outcomes of lying, cheating, stealing, drug abuse, and violence, to name a few.

And regardless of where we believe we came from, we're still human. And being human, we naturally have feelings of empathy, sympathy, compassion, and love for family and friends.

Those are the morals I would teach my daughter, because I love her more than my own life, and I want her to be happy and healthy, and to live in a peaceful, just, and prosperous society.
 
Im with Piggy! Bring a cd-player with some "final victorious speach"-music, a big american flag and a wind machine to get it moving and its hole in one.
 
Rasmus said:
Again, talk to your lawyer about this. *nag*

Are there any good examples that you could talk about that would demonstrate that you are a moral person? Charity work, etc?

Perhaps situations where you had to set an example for your daughter - even though that seems somewhat unlikely at 9 months.

Are there any specific points you dissagreed over with your ex? What is it she would view as immoral about you (or claim was immoral)? Other than your atheism, of course. Maybe you can show that there are differences and dissagreements, but that these didnt mean one of you was immoral. I am not asure how riskey this would be, though.

And good luck.
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I am an eagle scout and I have been in the military as a meteorologist for 6 years 3 months and have done numerous things to help the community to include volunteering for habitat for humanity through first baptist church over here.
 
The answer is I don't see how that is germaine to whether I have made a good father to my daughter since she was born or whether I will continue to do so. My criminal record is clear. No one has accused me of amorality. There is nothing to impeach me as being anything other than an upstanding citizen and positive influence to those around me. Particular religions can't be used to determine one's fitness as a parent, and I aver that a lack of religion cannot either.

At which point I'd pull out a photo of Kevin Federline and say "This man has joint custody of his children and yet you would deny me visitation rights?"
 
I find it disturbing that this question would even come up. I mentioned it to my wife (who has worked in the court system) and she was very upset at the idea of a judge asking this, and wondered if it was too late to ask for another judge. One has nothing to do with the other. I would say you have had some excellent advice, good luck, and all of us "weekend" dads are cheering for you. IF you can, please keep us updated on how it is going.
 
Ceritus said:
I am an eagle scout and I have been in the military as a meteorologist for 6 years 3 months and have done numerous things to help the community to include volunteering for habitat for humanity through first baptist church over here.
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Right. That settles it. I guess it is clear to all now that you are the ammoral scum of this planet. Please stop waisting our oxygen.

... where was I?

So not only are you setting a good example, you are even doing so side by side with the curch, i.e. clearly not opposed to what the churches are or do. I don't think there is a lot of room left to accuse you of being immoral or that you might force your daughter into your atheism or anything.
 
That's absolutely appalling, Ceritus - as has been suggested, speak to your lawyer about this, if you haven't already. When people ask me, I tend to say that I believe we have ethical obligations to out fellow humans - practical examples of the voluntary work you've done, donations to charities etc are also a great help. I'd argue that I try (and, of course, often fail) to act ethically because this is the right thing to do.

ETA - good luck!
 
"I find it easy, natural, and emotionally satisfying to love my fellow human beings without believing that there are prizes in the afterlife for doing so."
 
"We cannot live pleasantly without living wisely, honorably, and justly; nor live wisely, honorably, and justly without living pleasantly." (Epicurus, Letter to Menoeceus)
 
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