I absolutely love the Nativity story

[Minoosh]

I love, absolutely love, the Nativity story. Somewhere I have a small creche that I used to put up every year. A special baby is born into reduced circumstances and everyone, from kings to shepherds and the beasts of the fields, knows he is special. I enjoy the portents, the star, the herald angels singing. I come informed with Christmas carols born out of Victorian optimism. I love the drummer-boy story which ends with the baby smiling. "Joy to the World," "Silent Night" (though I know this is German), "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen" ... the list goes on.

I like the idea of an adolescent Jesus shaking up the money-lenders at 13.

But I hate how the story ends, with the former baby being tortured to death, and I hate how Herod had every baby boy 2 and under slaughtered because Israel had a new king. I also wonder, if the baby (now 33) knew he was in fact immortal, does this really count as death? But that's a technicality. I also wonder why some of his followers feel they need to literally cannibalize him in order to be forgiven.

Anyone else have bits of Christianity they like or don't like? If you once believed, or still believe, that all of this is literally truth, that's cool with me. I'm inclined to think all this is the stuff of legend. To believe I would need a very abstract version in order to buy into it. What did Flannery O'Connor say, "Well if it's a symbol, to hell with it?" She was talking about transubstantiation. That's just to illustrate that very brilliant and creative people observe, say, Roman Catholicism, and I'm not out to rile anyone up, I'm not going to try to talk anyone out of their beliefs etc. I just wonder if other people see bits of Jesus's life as inspirational. For the purposes of this thread, he was a real guy with basically the same life story I reported above.

 

[Thor 2]

Badly in need of review.

They should replace the visiting kings with Santa Clause bringing gifts to the baby Jesus. That way the whole "Away in a Manger", "Jingle Bells" thing, could be melded together to make sense, instead of the conflicting mess that is almost a war, between the two reasons for the season we have now.

 

[acbytesla]

I love, absolutely love, the Nativity story. Somewhere I have a small creche that I used to put up every year. A special baby is born into reduced circumstances and everyone, from kings to shepherds and the beasts of the fields, knows he is special. I enjoy the portents, the star, the herald angels singing. I come informed with Christmas carols born out of Victorian optimism. I love the drummer-boy story which ends with the baby smiling. "Joy to the World," "Silent Night" (though I know this is German), "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen" ... the list goes on.

I like the idea of an adolescent Jesus shaking up the money-lenders at 13.

But I hate how the story ends, with the former baby being tortured to death, and I hate how Herod had every baby boy 2 and under slaughtered because Israel had a new king. I also wonder, if the baby (now 33) knew he was in fact immortal, does this really count as death? But that's a technicality. I also wonder why some of his followers feel they need to literally cannibalize him in order to be forgiven.

Anyone else have bits of Christianity they like or don't like? If you once believed, or still believe, that all of this is literally truth, that's cool with me. I'm inclined to think all this is the stuff of legend. To believe I would need a very abstract version in order to buy into it. What did Flannery O'Connor say, "Well if it's a symbol, to hell with it?" She was talking about transubstantiation. That's just to illustrate that very brilliant and creative people observe, say, Roman Catholicism, and I'm not out to rile anyone up, I'm not going to try to talk anyone out of their beliefs etc. I just wonder if other people see bits of Jesus's life as inspirational. For the purposes of this thread, he was a real guy with basically the same life story I reported above.

You can absolutely pick and choose parts of the bible that are inspirational and make you feel good. I always loved the beattitudes for example.

When I was trying to hang on to my Faith with my fingertips I was interpreting the Bible in a way that I could live with it. For example, I decided that Jesus wasn't God's only begotten son. That was wrong. We were all God's children and Jesus came to Earth to remind us of that. We just forgot. He came to teach us that we were capable of more then we could ever know. That we were capable of loving and forgiving the worst transgression. That we each have almost limitless strength and and ability to love love and strive.

After Jesus supposedly walked on water. His disciples asked how he could do that and Jesus's answer was with faith that we could do this and more. He was telling us that we had to have faith in ouselves. And even though I'm an atheist today, I still think that is a good lesson.

I remember having a discussion about my philosophy with my preacher and he basically said my interpretation was heresy. I still thought I was right but felt I couldn't express my idea without being banished from the church. What I recognize is that I was putting bandaids on my faith so I could kind of believe. Then I read the Old Testament and I was done. I really want to know how anyone can believe that God was loving and good?

 

[Craig4]

But I hate how the story ends, with the former baby being tortured to death, and I hate how Herod had every baby boy 2 and under slaughtered because Israel had a new king. I also wonder, if the baby (now 33) knew he was in fact immortal, does this really count as death? But that's a technicality. I also wonder why some of his followers feel they need to literally cannibalize him in order to be forgiven.

Technically, Jesus had a gay S&M session of Friday, slept it off on Saturday and got up early on Sunday. So he really didn't die for sins, he gave up part of his weekend for them.

 

[abaddon]

I love, absolutely love, the Nativity story. Somewhere I have a small creche that I used to put up every year.

You used to put up a transient creche every year? You might want to restate that claim. Did you offer sweeties? As stated, it is kind of creepy and I am not claiming anything about that, it just seemed to be a claim that could be grossly misinterpreted. Especially given church history in that regard.

I suspect you meant "crib". A "creche" is a childcare facility.

A special baby is born into reduced circumstances

Prove it.

and everyone, from kings to shepherds and the beasts of the fields, knows he is special.

Really? Which ones would those be? Ceasar? Herod? Who?

I enjoy the portents, the star, the herald angels singing.

None of those ever happened.

I come informed with Christmas carols born out of Victorian optimism. I love the drummer-boy story which ends with the baby smiling. "Joy to the World," "Silent Night" (though I know this is German), "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen" ... the list goes on.

So popular culture informs your faith? Seriously?

I like the idea of an adolescent Jesus shaking up the money-lenders at 13.

Have you read the Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus?

But I hate how the story ends, with the former baby being tortured to death,

Is Jesus dead? Yes or no.

and I hate how Herod had every baby boy 2 and under slaughtered because Israel had a new king.

Never happened.

I also wonder, if the baby (now 33) knew he was in fact immortal, does this really count as death?

No, If Jesus is dead, then he is dead and if he isn't dead then he isn't. So which is it?

But that's a technicality. I also wonder why some of his followers feel they need to literally cannibalize him in order to be forgiven.

Yay, an RCC basher. It matters not which flavour of christianity one endorses, all of them are flat out nutty. Shall we atheists have a schism about which is the most nutty? I think not.

Anyone else have bits of Christianity they like or don't like?

I don't like any of it.

If you once believed, or still believe, that all of this is literally truth, that's cool with me. I'm inclined to think all this is the stuff of legend. To believe I would need a very abstract version in order to buy into it. What did Flannery O'Connor say, "Well if it's a symbol, to hell with it?" She was talking about transubstantiation. That's just to illustrate that very brilliant and creative people observe, say, Roman Catholicism, and I'm not out to rile anyone up, I'm not going to try to talk anyone out of their beliefs etc. I just wonder if other people see bits of Jesus's life as inspirational.

Being raised RCC I know it was a load of bollocks. But the other denominations are also a load of bollocks. All one is doing is lining up a bunch of different blokes and deciding which bollocks one prefers. Now that is bollocks.

For the purposes of this thread, he was a real guy with basically the same life story I reported above.

Fails for lack of evidence.

 

[gerdbonk]

You can absolutely pick and choose parts of the bible that are inspirational and make you feel good.

That's what every believer does. They also pick and choose parts that support their biases and make them feel righteous.

 

[Loss Leader]

What I like most about the Nativity story is how well it adheres to literary orthodoxy in the 1st couple centuries C.E. Generally, a hero had to have been born in some heroic way. Caesar was born through C-section, etc.

It's as if we founded a religion based on the first twenty minutes of When Harry Met Sally.

 

[ddt]

What I like most about the Nativity story is how well it adheres to literary orthodoxy in the 1st couple centuries C.E. Generally, a hero had to have been born in some heroic way. Caesar was born through C-section, etc.

It's as if we founded a religion based on the first twenty minutes of When Harry Met Sally.

If only someone founded a religion based on a part from the middle of that movie. "I'm having what she's having", if you know what I mean.

 

[ddt]

I love, absolutely love, the Nativity story. Somewhere I have a small creche that I used to put up every year. A special baby is born into reduced circumstances and everyone, from kings to shepherds and the beasts of the fields, knows he is special. I enjoy the portents, the star, the herald angels singing. I come informed with Christmas carols born out of Victorian optimism. I love the drummer-boy story which ends with the baby smiling. "Joy to the World," "Silent Night" (though I know this is German), "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen" ... the list goes on.

I kinda liked the story until I realized that it is really a mash-up of two incompatible stories.

In Matthew's nativity story, the Holy Family live all along in Bethlehem. No stable, no manger, no crib, no ass and ox, but simply at home. The Three Magi come along to adulate the newborn. But not the shepherds in the field. Joseph dreams they're in trouble and they flee to Egypt. Oh, and it's set during Herod the Great's reign, ca. 4BC. Herod, after the Three Magi don't come back to him to report, slaughters all the newborn. When Joseph and Mary hear Herod died, they return from Egypt, but because Archelaus, Herod's equally cruel son, has succeeded him in Judea, they settle in Nazareth in the Galilee.

In Luke's nativity story, the Holy Family lives in Nazareth, and they have to go to Bethlehem for Quirinius' census. That means it's set in 6AD. They find all the inns full, so have to live in the stable with the ass and the ox. The shepherds come to adulate the newborn. But no Three Magi, no slaughter of the newborn. The Holy Family simply go to the Temple to have Jesus circumcised on the 7th day and return to Nazareth.

 

[dann]

I love Kilgore Trout's version of the New Testament in Kurt Vonnegut's novel Slaughterhouse 5:

The Gospel from Outer Space (novel mentioned in Slaughterhouse-Five)

It was about a visitor from outer space, shaped very much like a Tralfamadorian, by the way. The visitor from outer space made a serious study of Christianity, to learn, if he could, why Christians found it so easy to be cruel. He concluded that at least part of the trouble was slipshod storytelling in the New Testament. He supposed that the intent of the Gospels was to teach people, among other things, to be merciful, even to the lowest of the low.
But the Gospels actually taught this:

Before you kill somebody, make absolutely sure he isn’t well connected. So it goes.

The flaw in the Christ stories, said the visitor from outer space, was that Christ, who didn’t look like much, was actually the Son of the Most Powerful Being of the Universe. Readers understood that, so, when they came to the crucifixion, they naturally thought, and Rosewater read out loud again:

Oh, boy — they sure picked the wrong guy to lynch that time!

For those of you who haven't read it already, you can read the rest of the 'Kilgore Trout' story here: The Collected Stories of Kilgore Trout

 

[Trebuchet]

You used to put up a transient creche every year? You might want to restate that claim. Did you offer sweeties? As stated, it is kind of creepy and I am not claiming anything about that, it just seemed to be a claim that could be grossly misinterpreted. Especially given church history in that regard.

I suspect you meant "crib". A "creche" is a childcare facility.

"Creche" is commonly used to refer to a nativity scene in the USA, and is in fact the first definition that comes up from Google. It's never used here for the second definition, which we would call a "day care".

Camels and Wise Guys, of course, don't really belong in it if you read the Bible.

 

[Giordano]

I love Kilgore Trout's version of the New Testament in Kurt Vonnegut's novel Slaughterhouse 5:




For those of you who haven't read it already, you can read the rest of the 'Kilgore Trout' story here: The Collected Stories of Kilgore Trout

Beat me to it, darn you! And Trout's further proposal of a last minute adoption by God of some nobody on a cross would have been a much better lesson for humanity: be kind to everyone because God from this moment on will punish horribly anybody who torments [even] a bum who has no connections.

 

[Giordano]

Getting back to the OP itself...

Even though I am a Jewish atheist, I too have a fondness for the concept behind the Christian nativity story (or at least one version of the nativity story): that the Messiah, the Savior for whom "the people" yearned turns out to be a person of humble background who gently preaches love. Not the showy king who comes bringing war and saves "his people" by physical force as was expected at the time. It is a wonderful meme, even though IMO much of the positive moral of the story is lost because of how it is presented in the NT. First, of course, Jesus is presented as possessing magic and as being the Son of God; neither of which exist. A major flaw, right? Second, Jesus in the NT is not really of humble origins- he is secretly more important and more powerful than anyone else on Earth. And as such his ultimate reward (after a bad long weekend) is to have power over Heaven and Earth. Plus he doesn't stay dead but instead assumes a heavenly throne and grants people who simply accept him into their hearts a pass for all the evil they might have done in their lives. As I see it the message of "Love one another" is lost within all the melodrama and supernatural stuff added by the NT writers.

I particularly like the carol "Do you hear what I hear?" because it focuses on the parts of the nativity story that touch me the most rather than the magic junk:

"Said the shepherd boy to the mighty king,
Do you know what I know?
In your palace warm, mighty king,
Do you know what I know?
A Child, a Child shivers in the cold...

Said the king to the people everywhere,
Listen to what I say!
Pray for peace, people, everywhere,
Listen to what I say!
The Child, the Child sleeping in the night
He will bring us goodness and light,
He will bring us goodness and light."

 

[gerdbonk]

I like the part with Mary riding Joseph's ass.

 

[bluesjnr]

inspirational

Y'got it all in this one word and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[John Jones]

I like the part with Mary riding Joseph's ass.

Mary rode Joseph's ass all the way to Bethlehem. I feel his pain.

 

[Mark F]

I love, absolutely love, the Nativity story. Somewhere I have a small creche that I used to put up every year. A special baby is born into reduced circumstances and everyone, from kings to shepherds and the beasts of the fields, knows he is special. I enjoy the portents, the star, the herald angels singing. I come informed with Christmas carols born out of Victorian optimism. I love the drummer-boy story which ends with the baby smiling. "Joy to the World," "Silent Night" (though I know this is German), "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen" ... the list goes on.

I like the idea of an adolescent Jesus shaking up the money-lenders at 13.

But I hate how the story ends, with the former baby being tortured to death, and I hate how Herod had every baby boy 2 and under slaughtered because Israel had a new king. I also wonder, if the baby (now 33) knew he was in fact immortal, does this really count as death? But that's a technicality. I also wonder why some of his followers feel they need to literally cannibalize him in order to be forgiven.

Anyone else have bits of Christianity they like or don't like? If you once believed, or still believe, that all of this is literally truth, that's cool with me. I'm inclined to think all this is the stuff of legend. To believe I would need a very abstract version in order to buy into it. What did Flannery O'Connor say, "Well if it's a symbol, to hell with it?" She was talking about transubstantiation. That's just to illustrate that very brilliant and creative people observe, say, Roman Catholicism, and I'm not out to rile anyone up, I'm not going to try to talk anyone out of their beliefs etc. I just wonder if other people see bits of Jesus's life as inspirational. For the purposes of this thread, he was a real guy with basically the same life story I reported above.

The bits of Christianity I don't like start on page one and end on the last page of the Bible.

 

[acbytesla]

The bits of Christianity I don't like start on page one and end on the last page of the Bible.

I cant go that far. There is some great poetry as well as humanity in the bible. Unfortunately, it is dwarfed by racism, misogyny, bigotry and demonstrations of inhumanity so evil that they can only be rationalized by divine command.

 

[Minoosh]

I suspect you meant "crib". A "creche" is a childcare facility.

A nativity scene.

Prove it.

Really? Which ones would those be? Ceasar? Herod? Who?

None of those ever happened.

So popular culture informs your faith? Seriously?

Popular culture informs my childhood remembrances.

Have you read the Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus?

Is Jesus dead? Yes or no.

Never happened.

No, If Jesus is dead, then he is dead and if he isn't dead then he isn't. So which is it?

You're arguing, I think, with the wrong person. I don't really have any heavy baggage about the folklore. If you think I should, OK, but part of me just likes the folklore.

Being raised RCC I know it was a load of bollocks. But the other denominations are also a load of bollocks. All one is doing is lining up a bunch of different blokes and deciding which bollocks one prefers. Now that is bollocks.
Fails for lack of evidence.

Church of Christ is in a way weirder than RCC. I must clarify, this was NEVER shoved down my throat. Which is why I can look at bits I like even now.

 

[Minoosh]

Beat me to it, darn you! And Trout's further proposal of a last minute adoption by God of some nobody on a cross would have been a much better lesson for humanity: be kind to everyone because God from this moment on will punish horribly anybody who torments [even] a bum who has no connections.

My thoughts in a way. Kindness to all; someone really needs that kindness, so it's the right thing to do.