Hybrids vs. fuel cells

[arcticpenguin]

Last week, Toyota made a big deal about how cheaply they could produce hybrid vehicles. So now General Motors has to put its word in, claiming that hydrogen fuel cells vehilces will win out over gas/electric hybrids in the end.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...1&u=/nm/20031006/tc_nm/autos_gm_technology_dc

But Larry Burns, GM's vice president of research, development and planning, said zero-emission fuel cell vehicles (FCV) will eventually make gasoline-electric hybrids obsolete, rejecting Toyota's view that hybrids will remain on the road even after FCVs become affordable for the average consumer.
...
GM has invested about $1 billion in developing fuel cells to power electric motors in vehicles, and wants to be the first auto maker to sell a million FCVs. It hopes to commercialize FCVs by 2010 -- one of the most optimistic targets in the industry.

Sounds great! Rush right down to your GM dealership today and demand to buy a fuel cell-powered car. Oh, I forgot, they don't actually sell one yet.

Thanks for the smoke and mirrors, GM

 

[Professor Frink]

Hydrogen cell cars sound great, but as far as I know the best way to produce it requires electricity, which sort of takes the fun out of "conserving resources."

If Ford and GM would put up their hybrid vehicles for purchase, I bet they wouldn't be able to produce enough to meet demand. Ford recently delayed their release of a hybrid Escape because it had problems. If they can make this work and do it well, I think they could rake in the bucks.

Speaking of hybrids, wasn't there some proposal to give a tax credit to those who bought hybrids, to counter the additional sticker price of a hybrid? That would be to encourage people to buy them. Or maybe I read that it was being proposed, and it never got to Congress for a vote. (I'm just a bill, yes I'm only a bill...)

Frink

 

[Walter Wayne]

Speaking of hybrids, wasn't there some proposal to give a tax credit to those who bought hybrids, to counter the additional sticker price of a hybrid? That would be to encourage people to buy them. Or maybe I read that it was being proposed, and it never got to Congress for a vote. (I'm just a bill, yes I'm only a bill...)

Frink

Canada has a $1000 Tax Credit for buying a hybrid vehicle IIRC. I found this out when I test drove the Honda Insight. This Tax Credit amounts to a savings of about $220 on taxes in Ontario, but the Civic Hybrid costs something like $28 000, and the equivalent civic is $20 000. Still it is something.

Didn't Oregon have a reverse incentive they were talking about? An additional registration fee they proposed to get back the money they wouldn't get from gas tax?

Walt

 

[xouper]

arcticpenguin: Sounds great! Rush right down to your GM dealership today and demand to buy a fuel cell-powered car. Oh, I forgot, they don't actually sell one yet. Thanks for the smoke and mirrors, GM

GM's EV1 electric car was no smoke and mirrors. Some people bought them and like them, but not enough demand for it. Actually, leased is more accurate, and now apparently GM wants them all back, which I don't understand exactly.

 

[WildCat]

100 years ago there were as many electric cars as gas ones. Gas won out for the convenience and range. Another problem w/ electric is that the batteries have to be replaced periodically, this is very expensive and has disposal issues, which is maybe why GM recalled all theirs.

Hybrids have promise but they're still quite expensive.

 

[Professor Frink]

Ford recently had an electric car out that didn't get purchased by anyone but enthusiasts. It was a little toy car that looked like it would be consumed by a large pothole. Then they said "Hey, we tried to create an electric car, but no one bought one. It's not our fault the market isn't there!"

Frink

 

[fsol]

I think fuel cells will win out in the future, probably initially as a gas - electric hybrid.
All of the major motor manufacturers have a stake in some sort of fuel cell research program. Whether they do it in house like GM or contract out.
The biggest problem I can see is hydrogen production and storage. Do you store hydrogen on board the vehicle? If so what method do you use? Do you decide to produce hydrogen onboard the vehicle instead? There are advantages to both methods.

 

[swellman]

...

Speaking of hybrids, wasn't there some proposal to give a tax credit to those who bought hybrids, to counter the additional sticker price of a hybrid? That would be to encourage people to buy them. Or maybe I read that it was being proposed, and it never got to Congress for a vote. (I'm just a bill, yes I'm only a bill...)

Frink

Yes, the IRS allows a tax credit of up to $2000 on hybrid vehicles.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=107766,00.html

I am considering getting one myself, but the long term supportability of the technology has me a little worried.