HRW Report about Lebanon

[Leif Roar]

For those who follow the current war in Southern Lebanon, Human Rights Watch has released a report, Fatal Strikes with the sub-title
Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon, in which they direct a scathing critique against Israeli attacks on civilians.

 

[Geckko]

For those who follow the current war in Southern Lebanon, Human Rights Watch has released a report, Fatal Strikes with the sub-title
Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon, in which they direct a scathing critique against Israeli attacks on civilians.

I reckon this will be another 50 page thread.

The methodology underlying the report is guaranteed to create a reaction:

Methodology

This report is based primarily on investigations by Human Rights Watch researchers, who have been in Beirut since the onset of the conflict and traveled for two days to Lebanon’s South. The team focused on interviewing witnesses and survivors of Israeli strikes inside Lebanon, gathering detailed testimony from these individuals, and carefully corroborating and cross-checking their accounts with international aid workers, international and local journalists, medical professionals, local officials, as well as information from the IDF.

Security conditions did not permit on-site visits to many of the villages or other sites where civilian casualties are documented in this report, but in all cases Human Rights Watch located eyewitnesses to attacks.

and

As noted, in the cases documented in this report, witnesses consistently told Human Rights Watch that neither Hezbollah fighters nor other legitimate military targets were in the area that the IDF attacked.

You couldn't really criticise anyone from responding "well, they would say that, wouldn't they?"

and

These conditions limited Human Rights Watch’s ability to make a legal determination regarding whether the target in question was legitimate. In such cases, researchers sought additional witnesses outside of Hezbollah’s control to investigate the location of Hezbollah militants in the area at the time of the attack. If such witnesses could not be found, Human Rights Watch dropped the case.

This self (hezbollah controlled?) selection means the study doesn't give any real feel for the relative incidence.


There must be some way we can put a stop to all this killing, but I'm yet to be convinced of the value of such work as this given the circumstances with respect to access to information, the lack of any real distinction between "military" and "civilian" and the conflicted nature and unknown allegences of "eye witnesses" and even "local journalists/officials", "rescue workers" or "international observers".

I reckon we need to pursue a no-fault solution to this. The first step is for the supporters of each side to stop trying to clamber over one another in pursuit of the moral high-ground.

 

[FireGarden]

The IDF admits there were no rocket launches on the day of the strike at Qana.

Haaretz

As the Israel Air Force continues to investigate the air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident.

It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.

The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike.

But there was a real target... somewhere in the area.... North, south, east, west of Tikrit somewhat!

 

[WildCat]

I reckon we need to pursue a no-fault solution to this.

How about Hezbollah and Hamas release the hostages, disarm and recognize Israel's right to exist? Then stop arming and funding terrorists, and actively pursue them.

In return Israel won't invade or bomb.

It's really that simple, no? There will never be peace as long as Israel is surrounded by people/countries who support those who wish to destroy it.

 

[Katana]

I shared your concerns about the methodology, Geckko, but I was left thinking that HWR may have done about as well as anyone could (or has done up to this point). However, I do continue to feel that all of the information coming out of Israel and Lebanon is suspect and should be taken with a grain of salt.


Edited to add missing word.

 

[Geckko]

I shared your concerns about the methodology, Geckko, but I was left thinking that HWR may have done about as well as anyone could (or has done up to this point). I continue to feel that all of the information coming out of Israel and Lebanon is suspect and should be taken with a grain of salt.

What I take from it is that "doing as well as one could" and then drawing unambiguous, definitive and damning and conclusions is, in these circumstances, highly questionable.

Best they said:

"We have tried to study the situation on the Lebonese side of the border and encounter many obstacles to obtaining true and accurate information. We can only conclude that there has been some significant loss of innocent civilian life, but can not make any inference about underlying circumstances that led to the victims being in the area of an Israeli attack. Neither can we draw any conclusions about the intent, nature, accuracy or validity of any such Israeli attacks"

Then followed up by:

"Our next report is being prepared on the same basis on the Israeli side of the border"

 

[Katana]

How about Hezbollah and Hamas release the hostages, disarm and recognize Israel's right to exist? Then stop arming and funding terrorists, and actively pursue them.

In return Israel won't invade or bomb.

Will Israel release its prisoners? Aside from the hatred due to Israel's very existence, a lot of anger is fueled by the fact that thousands of Palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons, many without even being charged (hmm, sounds familiar).

 

[Geckko]

How about Hezbollah and Hamas release the hostages, disarm and recognize Israel's right to exist? Then stop arming and funding terrorists, and actively pursue them.

In return Israel won't invade or bomb.

It's really that simple, no? There will never be peace as long as Israel is surrounded by people/countries who support those who wish to destroy it.

That seems to be the issue that has divided the US and France at the UN. The US believing that the fundamental causes need to be addressed satisfactorally in order to ensure a meaningful and sustainable end to this.

I must say I have a lot of sympathy for that view, but still wonder is there no way we can do that without the bombs and rockets flying?

 

[Geckko]

Will Israel release its prisoners? Aside from the hatred due to Israel's very existence, a lot of anger is fueled by the fact that thousands of Palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons, many without even being charged (hmm, sounds familiar).

By familiar, do you mean detention of IRA suspects in Britain?

 

[Katana]

What I take from it is that "doing as well as one could" and then drawing unambiguous, definitive and damning and conclusions is, in these circumstances, highly questionable.

You're right. In reality, most people will simply read the headlines without digging further to understand the limitations of HRW's conclusions.

 

[Katana]

By familiar, do you mean detention of IRA suspects in Britain?

I mean the prisoners that America is holding in Guantanamo, many for years without any charges being filed against them.

 

[webfusion]

Has any independent organization looked over the list of fatalities at Qana?
HRW prepared this list from "a register" of the names of the people huddled in that building (apparently these individuals were not residents).

Why was there a "register" being kept? What was this, a Hezbollah Hotel? That seems to be the implication.

A simple question that has not been answered:

How many of the 12 adult fatalities were actually Hezbollah men?
Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?
It seems really basic, for journalists especially, whose job is to do investigations such as this and report the facts.

And in the report by HRW, they remarked --- Israel's contention about Hezbollah men hiding among civilians did not justify its "systematic failure" to distinguish between civilians and combatants.

I read that to mean, yes, Hezbollah are hiding among civilians, but Israel needs to take more care to differentiate better.

OK, so it's not always possible, with the intelligence available. Which was exactly why Israeli Defense Forces apologized for Qana, since they were surprised that the building was occupied that night. Apparently, it had been evacuated according to information the IDF had in hand, but out of nowhere, a group of transients (whose names were recorded on a "register" for some reason) suddenly were put into this place.

Something doesn't add up.
How many of those casualties were actually residents of Tyre?
If so, how did their bodies end up in a basement of a building in Qana at 8am on Sunday 7-30 ?

I do not expect any answers. This whole affair is off the media radar, and attention is now focused on the suburbs of Beirut and also upon the Syrian border, as IAF strikes pummel down.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D040806/beirut_strike_hp.jpg
The three main highway bridges bombed early Friday include one just north of Beirut at Maameltain and two further north at Madfoun and Halat, security sources and witnesses said. The attacks punched craters in the bridges, spraying the roads with rubble and twisted metal and destroying several cars. They also set fire to trees on the hillsides. The bridges have now been effectively closed to traffic. Four civilians were killed and 10 wounded in the airstrikes, the Lebanese Red Cross said. A Lebanese soldier and four other civilians were killed in air raids near Beirut's airport and southern suburbs, security officials and witnesses said. Later on Friday an additional 25 civilian casualties (no mention of fatalities vs. wounded) were reported in an IAF strike on a parking lot used by trucks and buses on Lebanon's border with Syria in the eastern Bekaa Valley.


And so it goes ---

Where are the IDF hostages Goldwasser and Regev?
Why aren't they being released unconditionally by Hezbollah?

 

[RyanRoberts]

Many of those prisoners were charged with terrorism offences , released as part of the Olso deal and later reintered without new charges. Certainly this is the case for their poster girl who is currently on hunger strike. She was serving 10 years for a car bomb plot and being a member of Islamic Jihad.

It is internment, with all the potential injustices that entails, but it's not quite rounding up random Arabs off the street to use as bargaining chips as some sections of the media present it.

 

[Geckko]

I mean the prisoners that America is holding in Guantanamo, many for years without any charges being filed against them.

I thought my example was better.

IRA suspects were held without charge indefinitely on suspicion of terrorist activities within the jurisdiction, and under the laws, of the country in which they were held.

Aren't the Palestinian prisoners of that ilk?

 

[Darat]

By the way we do have a new section dedicated to discussing Conspiracy Theories - don't know why but I thought that may be worthwhile mentioning in this thread at this point.

 

[webfusion]

The only prisoners who have any bearing on the Lebanon crisis are Goldwasser and Regev.

The only prisoner who has any bearing on the Gaza crisis is Shalit.

 

[Cleon]

The only prisoners who have any bearing on the Lebanon crisis are Goldwasser and Regev.

The only prisoner who has any bearing on the Gaza crisis is Shalit.

...Because Arabs just don't matter.

 

[Katana]

I thought my example was better.

IRA suspects were held without charge indefinitely on suspicion of terrorist activities within the jurisdiction, and under the laws, of the country in which they were held.

Aren't the Palestinian prisoners of that ilk?

Oops. Sorry. Yes. Better example.

So it is lawful in Israel to hold them indefinitely? Does that jive with the Geneva Conventions?

 

[webfusion]

By the way we do have a new section dedicated to discussing Conspiracy Theories - don't know why but I thought that may be worthwhile mentioning in this thread at this point.

No, darat, if you are referring in a backhanded way to my post #12, I totally disagree with your classification of the questions I asked as "conspiracy theory" material ---

• Why was there a "register" being kept? What was this, a Hezbollah Hotel? That seems to be the implication.
  
  A simple question that has not been answered:
  
  How many of the 12 adult fatalities were actually Hezbollah men?
  Why has nobody gone over the list and come up with that information?
  It seems really basic, for journalists especially, whose job is to do investigations such as this and report the facts.

Indeed, from the known facts, a mysterious "register" was maintained of the people in that building. From the known facts, the people in that building did not live there. From the known facts (photographic images of the bodies on the site) there were several men among the 12 adult fatailites. From the known facts, the names of the fatailites are available in the public record, and it should be a relatively simple matter to compare these names with known Hezbollah members. That's why we have journalists -- this is the type of thing they can accomplish, as investigators with access to the facts. It is a very basic function of their jobs.

I am not suggesting a 'conspiracy' -- I am asking a simple question:

How many of those 12 adult fatalities in Qana were Hezbollah men?

I do not expect an answer to that question, as I said, because the focus of the journalists has already been distracted by the ongoing rush of events...

Don't think that Geraldo Rivera or Anderson Cooper are gonna take two seconds from their busy schedules to look into that...

Move along, nothing to see here...

 

[Katana]

The only prisoner who has any bearing on the Gaza crisis is Shalit.

Not really. His capture was intended to persuade Israel to release Palestinian prisoners.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/730994.html

Sunday's attack was claimed by the Hamas military wing, the Popular Resistance Committees and a hitherto unknown group calling itself the Army of Islam.

Corporal Gilad Shalit was abducted in the pre-dawn attack on his tank, in which two of the members of his four-strong crew were killed and the third seriously wounded.

A pamphlet sent to local Gaza media outlets Monday and signed by the three groups said that they would only release information on the fate of Shalit if Israel freed Palestinian women and under-18s held in its jails.

Hamas leader Khaled Meshal, the Damascus-based head of Hamas' political bureau, is also involved in the process.

According to the intelligence officer, the terrorists' original plan was to kidnap an IDF soldier, present him at a press conference and use him as a bargaining chip in demanding the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israel. However, once the gunmen abducted Shalit, "they realized they were holding a hot potato."