How to test L-rods for dowsing powers?

[Sherman Bay]

One of the more common tools dowsers use are one or two L-shaped rods. The short end of the L is inserted in a sleeve vertically and the long end is held to point horizontally. There is very little friction between sleeve and rod.

If two rods are used, they are typically held close together. It is claimed that rods that stay parallel as the holder moves indicates one thing; rods that diverge (point in opposite directions) mean something else, and rods that cross, something else again.

The Quadro-Traker was a single one with a different bearing structure at the handle.

Some of the theories about why the rods move include magnetic forces (but that doesn't work with non-ferrous rods); some kind of force eminating form the substance that is being dowsed for, like water; psychic forces from the human handler, or a combination of these.

My theory (and it's not original, I'm just summarizing it here) is that the device is so delicate that the angle it is held plus horizontal movement of the handler, conscious or not, is sufficient to cause major movement, and other than perhaps air currents, there are no more forces at work other than wishful thinking.

So how could this theory be tested?

We need to record

1. The tilt of the rod with respect to the ground, and
2. any movement, in any compass direction, of the entire unit, like a vector recording

...with time.

It is my hope that we can show that every time a certain amount of movement and tilt happens, it produces a certain action in the rod(s), like they cross or diverge.

Why is this important? Because if a non-believer can produce the same reaction with rod(s) by tilt and movement alone, repeatedly, there is no need to postulate any other force. If we know exactly the amount of movement needed, we could even build a device that would "dowse" without humans touching it. Dial in 1.2 degrees tilt at 30 degrees from North, and you will get a rod that points to object X every time.

I haven't practiced much with rods like this, but I feel confident that with a little practice, I can cause them to rotate, lean or point anyplace, anytime I like just by my slight hand and body movements. This is analogous to Randi bending spoons by non-paranormal methods, which call into doubt the paranormal methods claimed by some.

Has any test been done like this? If not, we would need to detect very small tilts vs. time, perhaps only a degree or less. We would also need to record movements of the body to a fine degree, probably finer than GPS allows, and again, vs. time. Any ideas how this could be done with hobby-priced equipment? Or is my proposal so glaringly obvious that all we are doing is verifying what physics already knows?

 

[patchbunny]

An Australian skeptics dowsing video showed dowsers wandering across a tennis court(? - been a while), passing their rods over containers of water. At one point the camera zoomed in on one's hands, and you could see their hands tilt, thereby moving the rods back and forth.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

You don't really need to test how it works to determine whether it's down to psychic powers, etc., just whether it works at all. It's been tested many times and it doesn't.

But, yes, you're right, it's the ideomotor effect, and you could easily replicate it with a machine.

 

[oody]

Good luck with that. There's a pretty good article on dowsing right here on this site:
randi dot org/ encyclopedia/ dowsing.html Dowsing methods necessarily use a highly unstable system for which a very subtle change creates an instability.

It was my own experience dealing with friends of friends who claim to dowse (using a pendulum) the presence of aura-like energies that brought me to this forum. I think you will find that most dowsers are true believers, and that even if you could develop the ability to produce such a demonstration as you describe, it would have little to no effect in negating their belief in the phenomenon.

 

[Sherman Bay]

An Australian skeptics dowsing video showed dowsers wandering across a tennis court(? - been a while), passing their rods over containers of water. At one point the camera zoomed in on one's hands, and you could see their hands tilt, thereby moving the rods back and forth.

I don't doubt that tilting such a mechanism can cause it to swing. I'm concerned with quantizing it so it can be repeated.

You don't really need to test how it works to determine whether it's down to psychic powers, etc., just whether it works at all. It's been tested many times and it doesn't.

"Doesn't" what? Doesn't move? Not what I am trying to test. Movement isn't in doubt, nor is the reason behind it.

But, yes, you're right, it's the ideomotor effect, and you could easily replicate it with a machine.

As I understand it, the ideomotor effect causes human limbs to contract, move, whatever, in such a manner that the person is unaware of it and unaware of causing it. This barely perceptible movement can be magnified by devices such as Y-stick rods or L-rods.

But I am discarding that hypothesis, because the reason for movement is not a consideration here. I need to quantize it so it can be consistently reproduced -- given X stimulus, you will get Y result every time (pointing to a specific spot or object).

So I need to measure and record two components, both of which are small (tilt and vector). I could probably take them one at a time, but since many dowsing exercises involve both, at some point they should be integrated.

... Dowsing methods necessarily use a highly unstable system for which a very subtle change creates an instability.

That's exactly what I described. Now let's quantize it.

It was my own experience dealing with friends of friends who claim to dowse (using a pendulum) the presence of aura-like energies that brought me to this forum. I think you will find that most dowsers are true believers, and that even if you could develop the ability to produce such a demonstration as you describe, it would have little to no effect in negating their belief in the phenomenon.

Who said anything about changing attitudes or negating beliefs? Did people stop believing in Uri Geller when Randi reproduced everything he did? That's not the point of this exercise.

 

[BowlOfRed]

Extend the "holder" down by a substantial length (foot or so). I'm picturing something like a rigid wire or a thin dowel. Something that would be light weight so as not to affect the holder much. It doesn't even have to be straight, just rigid (so you could go around the hand/arm if you needed to). Put something large and visible (white ping-pong ball?) on the end and videotape it. If the holder is also visible, you can work out the angles.

The extra lever arm will amplify any motion of the holder so it should be much easier to pick up on tape. For tremendous effect, videotape from high above (I imagine that will be difficult) or from side and front or back simultaneously.

I'll bet you could do it directly with some sort of gyro, but my guess is something small enough to be unobtrusive and precise enough to pick up on the subtle movements is going to be expensive. I don't have any experience with them anyway.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

."Doesn't" what? Doesn't move?

Doesn't work.

As I understand it, the ideomotor effect causes human limbs to contract, move, whatever, in such a manner that the person is unaware of it and unaware of causing it. This barely perceptible movement can be magnified by devices such as Y-stick rods or L-rods.

Yes.

But I am discarding that hypothesis, because the reason for movement is not a consideration here.

You shouldn't discard that hypothesis, because it's correct.

I need to quantize it so it can be consistently reproduced -- given X stimulus, you will get Y result every time (pointing to a specific spot or object).

As I said, if you build a machine which tilts the rods you will be able to do exactly that. I'm not entirely sure why you'd want to, though.

 

[TjW]

If you recorded data from a 3-axis accelerometer embedded in the handle, you could use that as a tilt sensor. (Think of a Wii controller) A quadrature encoder on the shaft would report the direction of the rotation.

But it wouldn't matter. Because then dowsing would just become a mysterious power that influences your hands to move in such a way as to cause that reaction, rather than a mysterious power that influences the rods directly.

 

[roger]

"your hands are moving the rods"
"But not on purpose! It must be some PSI effect!!!!!!"

Randi's test are just perfect. Set up a course, have them run it sighted (determine which of the 10 closed boxes has gold in it, after being told and shown it's box #3), then place the gold in a random box and have them run it blinded. Everyone passes the open test, and fails the closed test. That's all science and the average person needs. The rest won't be convinced by any means.

 

[ehcks]

Put the rods in stationary, stable holsters. Instead of a person holding them, have the person hold jugs, some filled with water, some empty. Put them near the rods, but not close enough to move them physically. If they move for the ones with water, then that's evidence that they work.

 

[idoubtit]

That's not going to cut it because of the dowser's claim that the PERSON channels whatever mystery energy is emitted from water/metals/whatever. So, you need someone to hold the rods. Convenient, isn't it?

I'm actually surprised that dowsers agree to tests with buckets of water. I think the flowing pipes are more their speed since I see mention of movement of water as being a key to the mystery energy flow. Is all just silly anyway.

 

[oody]

If it's not to demonstrate the folly of dowsing, what would be the purpose of building such a controllable pendulum/L-rod? If we already know where object X is, why go to all this trouble to build a Rube Goldberg device that will point to it?