How the NHS will save money

[Asolepius]

I'm having what might best be called a robust exchange with the chairman of the National Health Service Trusts Association (NHSTA). It has provided "The NHS Directory of Complementary and Alternative Practitioners", which you can find here. It seems there is a quite a CAM mafia involved, with (you guessed) The Prince of Wales Foundation for Integrated Health, and the DoH, as well as the NHSTA. GPs are being flooded with woo-woo literature these days. Anyway, I had complained about bias and inaccuracy in the site, and received a 'without prejudice' reply copied to their solicitor! Very long, some of it irrelevant, and even mis-stating some of my points. Anyone interested in seeing the reply? Strangely it wasn't marked as privileged. Well it seems I have touched a nerve - methinks he doth protest too much. Might be worth homing in on.

 

[richardm]

If you can do it without falling foul of any solicitors, I'm sure it would be interesting!

 

[Benguin]

I'm having what might best be called a robust exchange with the chairman of the National Health Service Trusts Association (NHSTA). It has provided "The NHS Directory of Complementary and Alternative Practitioners", which you can find here. It seems there is a quite a CAM mafia involved, with (you guessed) The Prince of Wales Foundation for Integrated Health, and the DoH, as well as the NHSTA. GPs are being flooded with woo-woo literature these days. Anyway, I had complained about bias and inaccuracy in the site, and received a 'without prejudice' reply copied to their solicitor! Very long, some of it irrelevant, and even mis-stating some of my points. Anyone interested in seeing the reply? Strangely it wasn't marked as privileged. Well it seems I have touched a nerve - methinks he doth protest too much. Might be worth homing in on.

I think they are ultra vires in spending money destined for public health on faith-based treatment with no proven efficacy.

Maybe they are aware of that risk, after all, the last thing they'd want is the attention of a court case and the necessity to produce evidence for the efficacy of these treatments.

 

[EHocking]

I'm having what might best be called a robust exchange with the chairman of the National Health Service Trusts Association (NHSTA). It has provided "The NHS Directory of Complementary and Alternative Practitioners", which you can find here. It seems there is a quite a CAM mafia involved, with (you guessed) The Prince of Wales Foundation for Integrated Health, and the DoH, as well as the NHSTA. GPs are being flooded with woo-woo literature these days. Anyway, I had complained about bias and inaccuracy in the site, and received a 'without prejudice' reply copied to their solicitor! Very long, some of it irrelevant, and even mis-stating some of my points. Anyone interested in seeing the reply? Strangely it wasn't marked as privileged. Well it seems I have touched a nerve - methinks he doth protest too much. Might be worth homing in on.

I've read the initial House of Lords report on CAM as well as the Government's response to same and recommendations for the NHS.

I'd be very interested in the initial letter AND response - since this involves my tax pounds...

 

[CBL4]

When I am looking for medical advice, I always go to my local prince.

CBL

 

[Soapy Sam]

I also would be interested to see their response.

 

[Prester John]

I'd be interested in the reply. Reading the website of the NHSTA it is difficult to see what and why the organisation is for. It all seems rather vague, even their constitution doesn't really help much.

http://www.apcgt.co.uk/membership/constitution.htm

 

[Dragon]

This is beginning to worry me, too.
I've just caught a news item on BBC Three which picked up on this news from Wales.

From the first link -

The proposals have been put forward by Welsh Secretary Peter Hain, who says he has the support of both Tony Blair and the Prince of Wales.

Mr Hain, who is also leader of the Commons, said he wants to see Wales act as a model for the UK for further development on complementary medicine.

Welsh Health Minister Jane Hutt is now considering a pilot scheme.


Around one in five adults in the UK are estimated to have used some form of complementary medicine.

Under Mr Hain's proposals, Welsh GPs may be able to refer their NHS patients to dieticians and reflexologists.

Mr Hain, who uses complementary medicine himself, claims his son's asthma went after he was given advice about his diet.

So Mr Hain has fallen victim to our old friend post hoc ergo propter hoc. My son had asthma when he was little - hasn't got it now. Let's hear it for Ventolin!

From the second link -

Research is beginning to show that certain therapies work particularly well for different types of ailments. Homeopathy can be effective for overcoming hay fever, for example.

News to me, anyone heard of this?

Also the doctor being interviewed, didn't get his name, claimed that a study into mastitis in cows showed that injecting a homeopathic remedy at acupuncture points was more effective than injecting saline or plain acupuncture. Whaaaat? Surely acupuncture and homeopathy claim completely different modes of action - how can this be? Rolfe, BSM?

Edited for spelnig

 

[Rolfe]

Also the dotor being interviewed, didn't get his name, claimed that a study into mastitis in cows showed that injecting a homeopathic remedy at acupuncture points was more effective than injecting saline or plain acupuncture. Whaaaat? Surely acupuncture and homeopathy claim completely different modes of action - how can this be? Rolfe, BSM?

This Welsh lunacy (sorry, PJ) is part of what's fuelling Roger Coghill too. Hmmm, that's another little story.

As far as this particular nuttery goes, it sounds like Chris Day, who is so quacky he waddles. It's sad to see how people will quote the most dodgy, risible "studies" to support their woo-woo beliefs.

BSM, have you any more detail on that particular piece of woo-ism?

Rolfe.

 

[Dragon]

I'm Welsh, too Rolfe (there's a hint in the name)- did you notice that Plaid Cymru are jumping on the bandwagon? That's the Assembly stitched up then.

 

[Dragon]

Found it! (Why bother asking the experts when you have Google? )

Primary evaluation of homeopathic remedies injected via acupuncture points to reduce chronic high somatic cell counts in modern dairy farms

 

[Rolfe]

Well spotted! (Where do they find this woo?)

Note the extremely impressive n values (not!). No statistics done, no surprise, the groups were far too small. The raw data showed quite a wide separation, if you actually believe the results. Which I don't. I mean, replicate it, someone?

What was it Geni said about another homoeopathy work? "An impressive combination of misrepresentation and barefaced lies."

If this actually worked, it would revolutionise dairy practice. First, Chris Day would be all over it like a rash. (Pity his own allegedly successful homoeopathic treatment for mastitis is a completely different protocol.) But second, vets are nothing if not pragmatic.

It has to "work" on more than two cows first though.

Rolfe.

PS. Note the extreme polypharmacy. Three separate remedy preparations, containing 15, 6 and 5 different preparations respectively (including some which were just potency variations), 21 in all!

PPS. No date on this "pilot study". Another tiny "pilot" which was never replicated? Say not so!

 

[Rolfe]

I'm Welsh, too Rolfe (there's a hint in the name)- did you notice that Plaid Cymru are jumping on the bandwagon? That's the Assembly stitched up then.

You didn't hear me at the SNP conference a couple of years ago, having a go at Rob Gibson's woo about organic farming! Every year (mostly) I go through the agenda and try to get elected as a delegate and a Branch mandate to go up against woo if it's there. Fortunately it's not too prominent. I nearly came to blows with Rob Gibson in the bar afterwards on that occasion though!

It's mostly ignorance, they think it's warm and fuzzy and voter-friendly, and they need their heads banging together.

Rolfe.

 

[Dragon]

..
It's mostly ignorance, they think it's warm and fuzzy and voter-friendly, and they need their heads banging together.

Rolfe.

Quite, berfore they warmly and fuzzily waste any more NHS money.
Where are NICE when you need them? Shouldn't they be reviewing the literature and pronouncing on the efficacy of CAM treatments?

 

[Asolepius]

Quite, berfore they warmly and fuzzily waste any more NHS money.
Where are NICE when you need them? Shouldn't they be reviewing the literature and pronouncing on the efficacy of CAM treatments?

NICE has covered CAM in some Clinical Guidelines but not in the core activity which is Technology Appraisals. These are the in-depth examinations of cost-effectiveness. However the process is that someone has to request an evaluation. This is usually done by someone who has some evidence and wants it evaluated. I have been told by the NHS that they won't ask for an evaluation, because they know that NICE will reject it because of lack of evidence. The Daily Telegraph on 9th October claimed that NICE has `approved' healing therapy for terminal cancer - this is rubbish, NICE does not approve anything, only make recommendations. There is only a very non-committal mention of healing in a Clinical Guideline. I complained to the Press Complaints Commission but have received no reply after nearly a week. The key problem right now is that the government is ignoring NICE when it's convenient, and NICE has no teeth to object. It's rather more of a reactive organisation - reports have to be requested.