How do you prove you're a citizen?

[Tmy]

I was thinking about that story of the New Hampshire police who were arresting illegals fo trespassing.

How do you prove citizenship?? If someone walked up to you and accused you of being illegal, how do you counter that. i was born here, but I dont exactly have a "citizen card".

 

[Lisa Simpson]

I was thinking about that story of the New Hampshire police who were arresting illegals fo trespassing.

How do you prove citizenship?? If someone walked up to you and accused you of being illegal, how do you counter that. i was born here, but I dont exactly have a "citizen card".

Assuming I could get home to get my birth certificate, that would prove I was born here. Otherwise, I don't know.

 

[Cleon]

On the spot, it's difficult, unless you regularly carry a passport.

If you don't have a passport, I believe a Social Security card will do. Or a birth certificate.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

On the spot, it's difficult, unless you regularly carry a passport.

If you don't have a passport, I believe a Social Security card will do. Or a birth certificate.

I thought Social Security cards all said "not to be used for identification" since there is no picture.

 

[Tmy]

Who carries that stuff??? You arent supposed too, cause if you lose that stuff you are so open to ID theft. Say you are a mexican american citizen who happens to fall into this NHampshire town. If they arrested you as an illegal, ching ching..... FAL$E arrest claim!!

 

[Cleon]

I thought Social Security cards all said "not to be used for identification" since there is no picture.

True, but it does establish that the person listed on the card is a citizen. Which is why, when filling out federal forms (like tax forms when starting a new job), it's frequently required to show both a drivers' license (to prove you are you) and an SS card. Sometimes you can just show a passport, since it's both a photo ID and proof of citizenship.

 

[Tmy]

True, but it does establish that the person listed on the card is a citizen. Which is why, when filling out federal forms (like tax forms when starting a new job), it's frequently required to show both a drivers' license (to prove you are you) and an SS card. Sometimes you can just show a passport, since it's both a photo ID and proof of citizenship.

Cant you get an SS card as a legal alien too??? I dont think its ONLY for citizens. Immigrants wh legal status can get them too. How else do they get jobs.

Plus how hard is it to get a fake SS card. they dont even have pictures.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

From the SSA:

Types of cards

We issue three types of Social Security cards. All cards show your name and Social Security number.

1.The first type of card shows your name and Social Security number and lets you work without restriction. We issue it to:
* U.S. citizens; and
*People lawfully admitted to the United States with permanent DHS work authorization.

2.The second type of card shows your name and number and notes, “VALID FOR WORK ONLY WITH DHS AUTHORIZATION.” We issue this type of card to people lawfully admitted to the United States on a temporary basis who have DHS authorization to work.

3. The third type of card shows your name and number and notes, “NOT VALID FOR EMPLOYMENT.” We issue it to people:
*From other countries lawfully admitted to the United States without work authorization from DHS, but with a valid nonwork reason for needing a Social Security number; and
*Who need a number because of a federal law requiring a Social Security number to get a benefit or service.

edited to fix formatting.

 

[Tmy]

So practically speaking you cant really prove the negative.

Im surprised a mexican american muckraker hasnt already set up a run in with the minuteman milita by faking that they are illegal.

 

[crimresearch]

If you were a real citizen, you would know the secret handshake.

 

[Ranb]

.....Im surprised a mexican american muckraker hasnt already set up a run in with the minuteman milita by faking that they are illegal.

How would that work? As far as I know, the minutemen are only reporting people crossing the border. They are not actually doing anything that can get themselves in legal trouble.

Ranb

 

[Art Vandelay]

And if they're only stopping people for trespassing, they don't really need to know whether you're a citizen.

 

[Antiquehunter]

If you were a real citizen, you would know the secret handshake.

Nonono silly...

Its the barcode tattooed on the inside of your left nostril. (For New Hampshire residents its in the FAR RIGHT)

 

[Beady]

Re: Re: How do you prove you're a citizen?

Assuming I could get home to get my birth certificate, that would prove I was born here. Otherwise, I don't know.

A couple of years ago, I had a case where a purported US citizen was trying to sponsor a foreign-born relative for immigration into the US. The guy was ~70 years old, and claimed to have been born in rural Georgia. He supposedly had never had his birth registered (ie he didn't have a birth certificate), and none of the paperwork from his childhood (baptismal certificate, etc) had survived. Also, at age 70, there was very little chance he could produce anyone who would be a valid witness to his birth or childhood in the US. The only documentation he provided me was a membership card for the Disabled American Veterans (he also claimed, quite plausibly, that his military records were destroyed in a fire known to have occurred at a Federal records center several decades ago). I denied his petition for lack of documentation. Given the situation as it was presented to me, I would also have questioned a passport (how would he have obtained one?).

However, the bottom line is that its a good idea for US citizens to get and carry passports. In another year or so, it'll be a requirement even for crossing into and out of Canada.

 

[Zep]

Bet YOU were popular that day...

 

[Darat]

I was thinking about that story of the New Hampshire police who were arresting illegals fo trespassing.

How do you prove citizenship?? If someone walked up to you and accused you of being illegal, how do you counter that. i was born here, but I dont exactly have a "citizen card".

Perhaps by turning it on its head? The state should have to prove that you aren’t a citizen.

 

[Beady]

Say you are a mexican american citizen who happens to fall into this NHampshire town. If they arrested you as an illegal, ching ching..... FAL$E arrest claim!!

Given this scenario, you would not be arrested off the street just because you "looked" foreign, there would have to be additional factors. You certainly would not be charged with illegal entry or as a visa overstay ("arrested as an illegal") without solid evidence that you had, in fact, committed a definite action.

Now, you might be routed to secondary inspection upon entry into the US, but that is not an arrest, and *everyone* citizen or no, is subject to secondary. This hypothetical Mexican-American might also be picked up by a street cop for, say, speeding, but his citizenship would not be questioned unless the computer check or some other articulable cause for checking is found. In other words, "probable cause" has to be present.

 

[Antiquehunter]

Re: Re: Re: How do you prove you're a citizen?

However, the bottom line is that its a good idea for US citizens to get and carry passports. In another year or so, it'll be a requirement even for crossing into and out of Canada.

I read this news article here: (This was in May I believe)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/04/05/passports050405.html

But then by July, they appear to have rethought the idea:

http://www.wlbz2.com/newscenter/article.asp?id=24629

Passports for US / Canadian crossings have been debated widely for the past few years, and of course post-911 they're talking about it more often.

But for now it seems like cooler heads will prevail and proof of citizenship should continue to be sufficient.

The potential economic loss for such a draconian measure, not to mention the general 'bad feelings' a passport requirement would foster I think outweigh the benefits of requiring passport travel.

I hate showing my passport to US authorities - Visas from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, U.A.E etc... And the city of issuance is 'Islamabad'.

What is that I hear? The sounds of rubber gloves and lube?

Eek!

 

[Beady]

Re: Re: How do you prove you're a citizen?

Perhaps by turning it on its head? The state should have to prove that you aren’t a citizen.

If it wants to deport you or prevent you from entering the country, it does.

However, if you want to claim rights or privileges normally granted to or associated with US citizens (employment, voting, etc), it is up to the claimant (you) to substantiate your status.

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: Re: How do you prove you're a citizen?

If it wants to deport you or prevent you from entering the country, it does.

However, if you want to claim rights or privileges normally granted to or associated with US citizens (employment, voting, etc), it is up to the claimant (you) to substantiate your status.

I agree with that sentiment on pragmatic grounds but not as a matter of principle.

As a pragmatic decision it may be that as a whole society agree to allow the state to ask for proof of citizenship for certain matters but there should always be a responsibility for the state to demonstrate clearly (and with facts!) that the requirement is necessary and the best of the possible solutions.

This matter is being debated in the UK at the moment since the Government has plans to introduce an “ID card” tied into a centralised database of “citizenship”. The Government to date has not explained why this curtailment and surrendering of personal privacy is necessary and why it is the best of the possible solutions.