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How bad are schools?

pupdog

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Someone I know claims public schools are little more than cesspools--kids constantly misbehave, watch soap operas on classroom TV, etc etc. He has a tendency to leap to conclusions based on little or no evidence (he thought the Amer Assoc of Pediatricians was trying to promote sexual activity among children just because he heard of an article that mentioned discussion of birth control methods as a means of reducing pregnancies amongst some high-risk students). There were no such problems (well, very very few) when I went to school; can anyone recommend some reliable sources for judging the efficacy of K-12 education these days? Any good comparisons between schools now vs 20 or 30 years ago, or geographically?
 
My school was the worst in the Hunter region. Yet I never saw anyone with drugs the whole six years I was there. People like to exaggerate.

Maybe word got around that we teased the teacher with one arm...
 
Thanks--the NCES site looks like it's got what I need. I've previously seen the TIMS page, dealing with science achievement (internationally), but that's math & science and everybody knows how hard they are.

Also, I think that some of those who berate public schools for poor results, are also among those who are calling for science curricula to include Creationism. Go figure.
 
Criticizing the schools is an age-old pastime.

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABQ7578-0132-24
The North American review. / Volume 132, Issue 292
March 1881
The Success of the Free-School System, by John D. Philbrick
Notwithstanding this undeniable progress, so familiar to every school-man, and of which the evidence is abundant and conclusive, attempts are made by its opponents to discredit it and bring it into disfavor with the people. This is no new phenomenon. In every stage of its onward march it has been subjected to adverse criticism, in which ignorance of the topics discussed, unreasoning caprice, self-conceit, and sectarian bigotry have been in turn conspicuous. The most opposite and contradictory faults have been laid to the charge of the schools. Now they are complained of for teaching too much, and educating the pupils out of their proper sphere; then they are pronounced unworthy of confidence, because they fail to teach even the rudiments of education. They are accused of being godless and sectarian at the same time. While one critic is depicting the evils resulting from overworking the pupils, another is dilating on the waste of time in holidays and vacations. But of all the descriptions of fault-finding in which the opponents of public schools indulge, perhaps the most unjust and nonsensical is that which, ignoring altogether the incalculable good they have accomplished, blames them for not yet having succeeded in curing every political and social disease.
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Schools are pretty good. The whole 'the system is failing' thing is a lie created by people who want it to fail.
 
No one has a vested interest in promoting the GOOD in schools.

If the schools are "bad" then,

Teachers can whine that the classes are too big and they are underpaid
School Committees can whine that they dont have enough money in the budget
Politicians love to use "improving schools" as a platform.


Locally there was this story about one of the school districts having some of the lowest per student budgets in the state. Everyone cried about "not investing in our children" bla bla bla.
Funny thing, that same school district has some of the BEST test scores in the state. No one mentioned that while whineing about money cause the last thing school officials want is finanically efficient school that scores well.
 
Tmy said:
No one has a vested interest in promoting the GOOD in schools.

If the schools are "bad" then,

Teachers can whine that the classes are too big and they are underpaid
School Committees can whine that they dont have enough money in the budget
Politicians love to use "improving schools" as a platform.


Locally there was this story about one of the school districts having some of the lowest per student budgets in the state. Everyone cried about "not investing in our children" bla bla bla.
Funny thing, that same school district has some of the BEST test scores in the state. No one mentioned that while whineing about money cause the last thing school officials want is finanically efficient school that scores well.
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Oh no, schools don't want to be run well...what are you talking about?!? Most people in school positions really care about the kids.

BTW, test scores aren't everything. You can 'fake' test scores by encouraging students to drop out, or leaving them back repeatedly so that they can avoid the tests.
 
From Zero:
BTW, test scores aren't everything. You can 'fake' test scores by encouraging students to drop out, or leaving them back repeatedly so that they can avoid the tests.
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Isn't there a post around here somewhere (or maybe I heard it on the radio) how just this thing has been going on in TEXAS?
 
pupdog said:
From Zero:


Isn't there a post around here somewhere (or maybe I heard it on the radio) how just this thing has been going on in TEXAS?
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Yeah, something like a single school, the one they were parading around as their 'success story', had something like a 40% dropout rate, and they were keeping some huge percentage of students in the 9th grade(I think possibly just on paper, though that could have been a different school), in order to keep them from taking the 10th grade test.
 
The school systems are fine, but I think the cirriculum could be improved with a little more emphasis on Skepticism and Critical Thinking skills.
 
There are good and bad public schools. There are good and bad private schools. There are good teachers, who inspire and motivate students, and bad teachers, who just put in their time for a paycheck, in all schools.

I had experience with just about every combination. What I learned is that what you get out of any school depends almost entirely on what you put into it. At the pre-college level, I think that the most important factor to a student's success is how involved the parent's are. When parents take an interest in the classes, help with the homework or just discuss the lessons, and communicate with the teachers regularly, the students do better compared to students with uninvolved parents. This is far more important than the quality of the school.

Some private schools require parental participation in the school community as a condition of enrollment...
 
IMO, most public schools are far inferior to private and charter schools.

Personally, I found my formative education (K- 8 at a catholic school) far superior to my younger sister's formative education (K-8 at a public school). Though a High School grad, she has only basic math skill, and little understanding of science, history, or politics.
 
Kodiak said:
IMO, most public schools are far inferior to private and charter schools.

Personally, I found my formative education (K- 8 at a catholic school) far superior to my younger sister's formative education (K-8 at a public school). Though a High School grad, she has only basic math skill, and little understanding of science, history, or politics.
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Maybe your sister is just stupid?:p
 
Kodiak said:
IMO, most public schools are far inferior to private and charter schools.
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If we're not talking about home-schooled kids, then I have to offer up a resounding "Well, DUH" to this. Nothing personal, Kodiak. :)

Think about it--in a system where you have both public and private education, of course private education is going to be better. Think about it. Suppose you're a parent. If you have a choice between Public School A, which is already paid through your tax dollars, and Private School B which is worse than the Public School and costs you money, which are you going to send your kids to? The one that costs money and sucks, or the one that's paid for and is doing alright?

My point is--there probably are private schools out there worse than the local public schools, but I can't imagine who would pay more for lesser quality. Unless, of course, we're talking about religious fundamentalists.
 
Cleon said:


If we're not talking about home-schooled kids, then I have to offer up a resounding "Well, DUH" to this. Nothing personal, Kodiak. :)

Think about it--in a system where you have both public and private education, of course private education is going to be better. Think about it. Suppose you're a parent. If you have a choice between Public School A, which is already paid through your tax dollars, and Private School B which is worse than the Public School and costs you money, which are you going to send your kids to? The one that costs money and sucks, or the one that's paid for and is doing alright?

My point is--there probably are private schools out there worse than the local public schools, but I can't imagine who would pay more for lesser quality. Unless, of course, we're talking about religious fundamentalists.
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Its gotta be more than money though, doesn't it?

Both the States and the Feds throw tons of money at education, all without any measurable benefit it seems.
 
Originally posted by patnray:
There are good and bad private schools.
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Originally posted by cleon:
Think about it--in a system where you have both public and private education, of course private education is going to be better. Think about it. Suppose you're a parent. If you have a choice between Public School A, which is already paid through your tax dollars, and Private School B which is worse than the Public School and costs you money, which are you going to send your kids to? The one that costs money and sucks, or the one that's paid for and is doing alright?
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But surely the proportion of bad private schools will be lesser than the proportion of bad public schools, since the former are profit making operations, and like all for-profit enterprises will go to the wall very quickly if consumers are unhappy with the quality of service and take their custom elsewhere?
 
Shane Costello said:
But surely the proportion of bad private schools will be lesser than the proportion of bad public schools, since the former are profit making operations, and like all for-profit enterprises will go to the wall very quickly if consumers are unhappy with the quality of service and take their custom elsewhere?
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Profit and competition....

Now we're talking...
 
Public Schools usually have better sports teams.! Unless a private school goes out an recruits. Which is another advantage they have over public schools.

Private schools can surpass publics because they do not have the same restrictions.
 
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