Home Schooling

[Roadtoad]

I found this wonderful article when I was looking for a suitable Occam's razor link for another board.

http://www.home-ed.vic.edu.au/AERG/Oth73-Occams-Razor.htm



Homeschooling was cheap for me.
I didn't buy a curriculum.
You can't stop a child from learning.

Hey Jer, are you reading this?
Is it snowing? Can you smell it?

Fantastic link, tami. Thanks! More to read!

 

[athon]

These are my skeptical positions about schools and "The Hidden Curriculum".

Position One: Teachers are not qualified to be teacher.

Well, in some ways you are correct. I know too many teachers who can do the job, but have little success at facilitating learning. But as a wide sweeping statement, it smacks of ignorance.

Teaching degrees are such soft options that the brighter Arts students feel superior when they see the course material.

OK, now I know you have no idea. I am not in the minority - I have another degree (applied science - biotech, honours - molecular genetics), and I have worked in the pathology industry for a few years. I changed into education and don't regret my choice.

I know many others who have done the same. I think in some ways it would be good to have it compulsory to have industry experience, but considering how difficult it is to get teachers, it is impractical. So once again, another smart-arse mouthing off who has not offered a practical solution to an obvious problem.

So if you never made it past high school yourself, and there is no shame in that, you are probably better off handing your kids over to the school system.

Nope. I completely disagree. Like it or not, it is a world where people need to be able to learn for life, not for five years and the 'go out there'. There is a misunderstanding that the school of 'hard knocks' is where people learn the most. But unfortunately, the lessons often result in ignorance.

A relative handful of teachers are actually people who like kids and are good at teaching. You are very lucky if you get one, because the system does not encourage them.

True. I'm a big fan of restructuring the system to a more 'management based' concept, where schools headhunt for the best staff and reward teachers for working harder.

So if you have a real tertiary qualification and you got As (or the equivalent) in school, you're better qualified to teach than a school teacher if you have any interpersonal skills at all.

Wrong again. I have personal and anecdotal evidence against this, and have read two papers in the past two years in the Queensland Journal of Education to refute this. Personally, I sucked at maths. Failed through highschool. And now I teach it. Through hard work and knowing how the students are failing (afterall, I failed secondary before passing my tertiary-subjects in foundation maths) I have taken failing students and have succeeded in helping six out of a group of nine pass. I have been commended by the principal and the head of maths for this.

Anecdotally, my cousin has been hired by a top English school because of his accolades in pure maths. He was let go recently after three months because the students could not fathom his methods. The guy is a genius, but could not get the ideas across.

Position Two: "The Hidden Rationalisation"

It doesn't take a genius to realise that most of what is taught in high school is either a lie or useless. Nor does it take a genius to realise that most of what students learn, useless or otherwise, they forget within a few months of graduating unless they go in to a job or course where those skills are required.

So what do teachers do when they realise this? Well, they could get a real job. But most don't have the brains for better paid white collar work or the inclination for manual labour.

I'd like to see something backing this up. I think it is simply an ignorant slur, but you might have reasons for saying this. In my experience, it is in the minority.

So they make up a fairy story. Which is "The Hidden Curriculum".

The story goes like this. Making children spend six hours a day in an authoritarian environment as faceless subjects of bad tuition is not, as you might think, the unfortunate side of a necessary education. No, doing so is the point! It teaches them to knuckle under to authority figures, obey rules, subordinate themselves to a team in pursuit of empty victories and to shut the hell up even when they are trapped in an idiotic system.

This is the real curriculum, they say.

It's a cunning story, because it justifies absolutely everything besides the curriculum. It's the hidden curriculum, don't you see? Everything we do is okay, because it's teaching them a valuable covert lesson.

Again, crap. The Hidden Curriculum (while I hate the academic jargon that it rings of) is actually an important shaper of society. Think of it this way - any time you force a group of people together for a long period, in a changing and often stressful environment, you get socialisation occuring based on behaviour. Hierarchies form, learning patterns, simple associations, complex associations...you don't get the same people coming out in the end, do you? Look at prison - there's a hidden curriculum there as well.

This can, and is, manipulated to encourage positive citizenship. Very 'Brave New World', I know, but like it or not, it's a very real thing. And necessary.

The truth is that the important socialising parts of growing up can take place just fine without classrooms and uniforms. As long as the kids get out of the house and have interests that bring them in to contact with other kids, they'll do fine.

 

[Roadtoad]

And now I come to the point where I put out my biggest beef with home schooling: Jonathan, I find out tonight, didn't do some of his schoolwork. He's got five articles he has to read, and report on, (which he had three weeks to get done), and now he's going to get it done this weekend. He pulled a fast one, in other words.

The kids do this every once in a while. Then, we wind up sitting with them at the kitchen table, they bitch and beef about how unfair it all is, and I remind them that if they think this part is hard, wait until they get a BOSS. (A boss won't push them to get it done. He'll just fire them and hire someone who will work...) Any ideas about what I could do about this part of it? (Thank God, they have a regular teacher who comes to the house.)

 

[aerosolben]

Jonathan, my older son, kept running into teachers who seemed to have some
animus towards him.

Matthew, my youngest, was not learning at all. We had tried for years to get him
in for some sort of assessment to find out why, but the school district kept putting
us off, telling us they'd do it later in the next semester, or early next year...........there was always an excuse as to why they could not be bothered.

The other girl flashed a knife, and told our friends'
daughter that after school, she'd be dead. When our friends' daughter told the school
administration, they shrugged their shoulders and said it wasn't their problem.

Based on their face value, these are really wild, extreme statements. To be frank, they're unbelievable.

Well, since this is your opinion, I feel compelled to chime in with "not in my experience".

Personally, in primary and secondary school, I ran into multiple teachers that had a animus towards me. I also ran fantastically gifted and helpful teachers...who recognized their colleagues terrible behavior. I was once forced to sit in 'time out' in a hallway for 90 minutes because the teacher walked into the room (late) at the beginning of class and immediately told me too. No reason whatsoever, that I or any witnesses I later spoke to could discern. Perhaps I should note that this same teacher was later severly reprimanded for having an extramarital affair with another teacher, and occasionally threw chalk (and once a chair) at other students. And I went to a GOOD public school.

ADHD can be difficult for the layperson to distinguish from laziness, especially when the teachers don't want to put in the extra effort and would rather let the kid founder.

The last one I don't know too much about. I've always been worried about schools being overprotective concerning such things.

 

[Tez]

Here's a brief synopsis of my experience with homeschooling.

Both my parents are teachers (in Australia) - one secondary, one primary. So, as you might expect, I believe teachers are under-appreciated. And these days, I think they are drastically under-qualified, for the simple reason that teaching is no longer a "Profession", and so it no longer attracts the best students (its very often a fallback). It doesn't attract the best students for the simple reason that teachers are underappreciated! And of course, I have no patience for over-involved parents, who are far more irrational than your average "True Believer".

When I was a university student I did an extraordinary amount of private tutoring of high school kids. Over 40hrs per week in my Honours year. (Made enough to pay for a 10 month trip around the world the year after!).

Nearly 2 years later, while I was doing my PhD in Canada, I decided to do some more math/physics tutoring. My first client was a family with two young sons (then 13 & 9), both being homeschooled.

The first time I went to their house, I told them straight up that I strongly disapproved of homeschooling - for basically the reasons that people have expressed already in this thread. In fact, I pretty much told them I was going to help them for the simple reason that I thought I was a damn good teacher and I felt sorry for their kids. (I've never been known for my humility!)

To cut a long story short - I now generically disapprove of homeschooling, but only very weakly, and only as an "average case" reaction. I believe that it can, under suitable circumstances, actually provide a superior overall education. This family did an excellent job of it, far better than I ever thought was possible. They got their kids involved in an amazingly diverse set of activities outside the home, that has enabled them to be completely "normally" adjusted socially. It helps that the father works at home (makes half a million a year painting pictures!) and is heavily involved in the kids' lives and education. The mother is an ex-mathematician with some education experience. I tutored them as long I was in Canada.

However - in the end the kids went back to school - the older for his last 2 years (he's now doing undergrad physics), the younger went back this year, and so he'll be in school his final 2.5 years. They both tried quite a few schools (under the knowledge that they could always return to homeschooling if they wanted). The (different) schools that they ended up took a lot of searching out, but both are/were very happy. And, although they tried private as well as public schools, one ended up choosing public, the other private (though both chose small and rather eccentric schools IMO!).

Finally - an aside rant. I really disapprove of the concept that you expressed, Roadtoad, with the comment "if they think this part is hard, wait until they get a BOSS". I think one can learn discipline and the ability/desire to perform without having to invoke or learn subjugation to authority. I personally had a miserable high school experience. Absolutely miserable. However I learnt discipline through playing sport. I also learnt competitiveness, and this came through in my academics, as well as my sport. As such I did well, without there ever being any need for my parents to check up on me. I always had a problem with authority (still do) and so I gravitated to one of the gazillions of jobs out there for smart people, in which they dont have a boss. Its much better to sell that idea to your kids - you wont need a boss if you do well! IMO, the only authority your kids should be actually taught to accede to, is that of people whom they believe truly have their best interests ultimately at heart. People such as their parents, and perhaps a tiny fraction of the teachers they encounter.

 

[Roadtoad]

Finally - an aside rant. I really disapprove of the concept that you expressed, Roadtoad, with the comment "if they think this part is hard, wait until they get a BOSS". I think one can learn discipline and the ability/desire to perform without having to invoke or learn subjugation to authority. I personally had a miserable high school experience. Absolutely miserable. However I learnt discipline through playing sport. I also learnt competitiveness, and this came through in my academics, as well as my sport. As such I did well, without there ever being any need for my parents to check up on me. I always had a problem with authority (still do) and so I gravitated to one of the gazillions of jobs out there for smart people, in which they dont have a boss. Its much better to sell that idea to your kids - you wont need a boss if you do well! IMO, the only authority your kids should be actually taught to accede to, is that of people whom they believe truly have their best interests ultimately at heart. People such as their parents, and perhaps a tiny fraction of the teachers they encounter.

I understand your point, Tez, and in general, it's a good one. Key to it, if I read you correctly, is having the self discipline to pull it together. You gained that through sports, and other endeavors. I found it when I was younger through music, and through writing. But, I think it's a bit naive to expect that people will always find an employer who has your interests in mind, much less your best interests.

Because of mistakes I made when I was younger, I wound up working for people who literally screwed me over. Some of the situations I went through were genuinely horrifying, including getting mauled by a pair of drunks for the amusement of an employer. (Some people have a strange sense of humor.) Legal action was out of the question: I had few skills at the time, and fewer places I could go. (I would have left, if I had a chance at winning any sort of a lawsuit.) I'll spare you the details, but it took a very long time for me to find an employer who would even keep his word, much less one who had any concern for my greater welfare. Without a decent education, that's where most people wind up: working for SOBs and creeps who think that sort of garbage is amusing, or who believe the only way to get ahead is to keep other people down.

(Just an aside on this, and don't let it sink the thread, but I've found employers who actually pay better, and work harder to provide a decent workplace environment for their people generally have more profitable businesses. Maybe it's just me, but it seems the creeps, given how much they have to lose, are simply doing it because they groove on losing...?)

I'm not keen on subjugation to authority, either, but there must be respect for it. An honest cop, a wise jurist, an ethical politician, and yes, even a thoughtful and insightful teacher, they deserve respect, primarily because they've earned it. Others, you simply give respect to simply because of the position they hold, and if for no other reason, it keeps pointless conflicts to a minimum. Self discipline is critical: without it, I'd still be down in the dirt. (Ever think about truck driving much? It's applied physics, nothing more.) I am convinced that it is self-discipline that serves as the linchpin that will keep my sons from enduring what I went through for years. Without it, they risk a chaotic life and living. I'd rather they not go through that.

I did not wind up driving trucks because I groove on soaking my hands in diesel, busting my knuckles reassembling my tractor/trailer, or breaking my back humping my loads off onto docks or trying to lower them into arms that may or may not be there for them. I wound up here because I lacked discipline in other areas of my life, and as a consequence, found I could not find a reputable employer who would pay a living wage for a man with a wife and kids to support. I literally went through a period of time where I had to raid a dumpster to eat, so my wife and kids could eat the little bit of real food we had. I don't know about you, but having gone through that, I'd rather not see my sons follow my miserable path.

You don't specify what field you're in, Tez. Could you tell us more? That might give us more insight into your views.

 

[Tez]

Originally posted by Roadtoad

I'm not keen on subjugation to authority, either, but there must be respect for it. An honest cop, a wise jurist, an ethical politician, and yes, even a thoughtful and insightful teacher, they deserve respect, primarily because they've earned it. Others, you simply give respect to simply because of the position they hold, and if for no other reason, it keeps pointless conflicts to a minimum. Self discipline is critical: without it, I'd still be down in the dirt. (Ever think about truck driving much? It's applied physics, nothing more.) I am convinced that it is self-discipline that serves as the linchpin that will keep my sons from enduring what I went through for years. Without it, they risk a chaotic life and living. I'd rather they not go through that.

I agree to some extent. There are basically two extreme positions on "earned" authority. In the one extreme, one accepts the authority that "society" dictates certain people have earned (such as your examples). This position basically sees such acceptance as part of Kant's social contract. In the other extreme, one only accepts the authority of those people with whom one has had direct interaction. I lean towards this latter option (though not to the ridiculous extreme). It seems you lean towards the former. If I had kids, I would try to make them aware of the fact that this acceptance of authority is essentially such a choice, and one they should consider carefully. I should also point out that part of my perspective is based on having lived in wide variety of countries. I've become very aware of the arbitrariness of the formalized customs which make up the majority of any society's laws, and have gradually become more and more inclined to ignore those I find inconvenient!


I did not wind up driving trucks because I groove on soaking my hands in diesel, busting my knuckles reassembling my tractor/trailer, or breaking my back humping my loads off onto docks or trying to lower them into arms that may or may not be there for them. I wound up here because I lacked discipline in other areas of my life, and as a consequence, found I could not find a reputable employer who would pay a living wage for a man with a wife and kids to support. I literally went through a period of time where I had to raid a dumpster to eat, so my wife and kids could eat the little bit of real food we had. I don't know about you, but having gone through that, I'd rather not see my sons follow my miserable path.

You know, I really appreciate that perspective. One of the main instigations to me actually completeing my university degree was that I did manual work (cotton chipping) on a farm the summer after my first year. It was incredibly gruelling - and everyone I worked with were career manual labourers. I became strongly motivated to *never* have to do that permanently! Although it wasnt as drastic as your situation, I think I understand the motivation that experiencing such a lifestyle can provide.


You don't specify what field you're in, Tez. Could you tell us more? That might give us more insight into your views.

I'm a theoretical physicist - by some miracle I do research in whatever I'm interested in at the moment.

However, I hasten to point out this is what I stumbled into halfway through the final year of my degree, and it has turned out to be perfect for me. It is not something I always aspired to, although now I couldnt imagine being anything other than a physicist. I simply kept doing my degree because I knew it was going to empower me, more than dropping out and playing sport was going to!