Holy Jesus! A Nihilist Converts...

Shadow

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I am an alcoholic, a drug addict and a nihilist. Well, I got tired of waking up in gutters at five in the morning and not remembering what happened 10 minutes ago so I decided to start going to A.A.

Now my biggest problem with that is that 11 out of 12 step to recover revolves around God. I did not just say there was no god, I said F*** god and those that find it necessary to believe in one.

I thought I was doomed to my miserable existence. I hated everyone and I was literally scared to death of myself. Now after being in the AA program, I still do not believe in any god but I do believe in the necessity to do so. That put me in a tough spot...so I decided that if I had to believe in a god to recover I would have to believe in my god. More or less a group of gods I had to make up for the purpose of recovering & living life.

Now, I am a former nihilist that has become a religious fanatic for spirituality. The need to believe in something other than just "me" is the only way I have found the power to control my life in a productive & non-destructive manner.

I am now a spiritual person worshiping gods that I believe are not there and do not care about me, yet having them makes my life controllable. Praying to fictional beings I created and know that I created somehow makes me happy. I don't know if its a form of multiple personality disorder to please my unhappiness & misery. I don't know if its the human nature of logical thought to believe in something more than just "me". Maybe it is a need to release my hate & fear to a being that will not judge me because it cannot respond. I do not know for sure and I cannot say if any of these reasons are right. I can say that making up gods & praying to them has made me happy, regardless if whether I believe in them or not.
 
Wow. I don't know where to begin. On one hand, congratulations on finding a way to overturn the key problems in your life. On the other hand...I don't know if I can agree that creating a fictitious pantheon to 'not' believe in is mentally healthy.

To what extent does this fictitious family of deities help? For instance, I can understand to some extent the depression brought on by alcohol from two fronts; one, my father was an alcoholic and I experienced first hand his emotional problems, and two, I suffer periodically from depressive episodes. Regarding the latter, I know the feeling of seeing the world as a bleak, grey place where nothing has significant meaning. My usually beneficial existential view becomes a weapon which my depressive nature uses against me. During these moments, I feel very nihilistic. However, it is within this that I rationalise that life itself is its own purpose. Topping myself makes as little sense, so I might as well get up and do something, because doing nothing is not an option. (complicated mind games I play with myself just to get out of bed some mornings...)

Sometimes I feel a compulsion to distance myself from my own character, to almost pretend I'm somebody else, which results from the sense of self-loathing I have during such episodes. Hence creating fiction to deal with reality might be something I do. But I do know it is not healthy, even though at the time it helps me mentally cope somewhat better.

So while I can understand the need to address the nihilism, I don't know how healthy it is in the long run to believe that you need to believe in some supernatural 'companions'. It feels as if you might run into problems with that in the future, although that is far from an expert opinion.

Good luck and hang in there. I hope people here can offer some more helpful advice.

Athon
 
Not to rain on anyone's parade but my understanding is that the success rate for those in AA is exactly the same as for those who go it alone.

AA may lead you to believe you need a god to recover but statistics says different.
 
I've found that the most ardent xians were x drug addicts and junkies.
They traded in one addiction which was Obviously destructive to one that is less obvious, but still is.
 
Shadow said:
I am an alcoholic, a drug addict and a nihilist. Well, I got tired of waking up in gutters at five in the morning and not remembering what happened 10 minutes ago so I decided to start going to A.A.

Now my biggest problem with that is that 11 out of 12 step to recover revolves around God. I did not just say there was no god, I said F*** god and those that find it necessary to believe in one.

I thought I was doomed to my miserable existence. I hated everyone and I was literally scared to death of myself. Now after being in the AA program, I still do not believe in any god but I do believe in the necessity to do so. That put me in a tough spot...so I decided that if I had to believe in a god to recover I would have to believe in my god. More or less a group of gods I had to make up for the purpose of recovering & living life.

Now, I am a former nihilist that has become a religious fanatic for spirituality. The need to believe in something other than just "me" is the only way I have found the power to control my life in a productive & non-destructive manner.

I am now a spiritual person worshiping gods that I believe are not there and do not care about me, yet having them makes my life controllable. Praying to fictional beings I created and know that I created somehow makes me happy. I don't know if its a form of multiple personality disorder to please my unhappiness & misery. I don't know if its the human nature of logical thought to believe in something more than just "me". Maybe it is a need to release my hate & fear to a being that will not judge me because it cannot respond. I do not know for sure and I cannot say if any of these reasons are right. I can say that making up gods & praying to them has made me happy, regardless if whether I believe in them or not.
Click to expand...

Your natural being is more than the fiction your mind calls your ego or self.
Sometimes ritual and imagery help integrate those aspects of your being thinking can't get at.

Your danger is replacing one addiction with another; becoming addicted to your tools.

Even after I could no longer believe in a Theistic God, I continued to speak to "No One At All." I kept my place where I could express my thoughts and feelings that were to private to me to share with others. It still is a useful exercise for me to speak things out when I'm emotionnaly distraught. And since this empty God doesn't have any thoughts, opinions, or judgements about what I say, I'm free to find what is in my heart.

The aim though, is an integration of yourself that no longer requires these Gods. But don't sweat it. All of us have our addictions and function well if we can make of them harmless and manageable ones.
 
Shadow said:
The need to believe in something other than just "me" is the only way I have found the power to control my life in a productive & non-destructive manner.
Click to expand...

Good. Welcome to the path. I wonder how you could have not believed in something greater than you. Next step is to realize that, properly speaking, there is no you. I'm happy to hear that you are on the road to recovery. Keep it up.
 
Shadow said:
I am now a spiritual person worshiping gods that I believe are not there and do not care about me, yet having them makes my life controllable. Praying to fictional beings I created and know that I created somehow makes me happy.
Click to expand...

This really makes no sense to me. :confused:
 
What gayak said. AA is a support group. In order to have the experience of fitting into the group you need to go through the vaguely religious stuff.

Try watching Cosmos and thinking about the infinite universe.
 
Shadow said:
I am now a spiritual person worshiping gods that I believe are not there and do not care about me, yet having them makes my life controllable. Praying to fictional beings I created and know that I created somehow makes me happy. I don't know if its a form of multiple personality disorder to please my unhappiness & misery. I don't know if its the human nature of logical thought to believe in something more than just "me". Maybe it is a need to release my hate & fear to a being that will not judge me because it cannot respond. I do not know for sure and I cannot say if any of these reasons are right. I can say that making up gods & praying to them has made me happy, regardless if whether I believe in them or not.
Click to expand...

Have you thought about having a look at Jungian Archetypes? The idea has been around long enough that I'm sure some of the psychotherapists have explanations for why they find the ideas useful even if the archetypes don't actually exist in any 'real' sense.
 
Hyparxis said:
Even after I could no longer believe in a Theistic God, I continued to speak to "No One At All." I kept my place where I could express my thoughts and feelings that were to private to me to share with others. It still is a useful exercise for me to speak things out when I'm emotionnaly distraught. And since this empty God doesn't have any thoughts, opinions, or judgements about what I say, I'm free to find what is in my heart.
Click to expand...

I do that. I'm fully aware no one is there and that I'm just talking out loud, but it helps to say it out loud sometimes. Helps to get it out of the head where it just goes round and round.....


I've also become aware, through this, that when I say "Aw, I don't care," it means I care very much. And yet, I can't stop saying it when I'm upset.

Oh, well. I don't care.
 
qayak said:
Not to rain on anyone's parade but my understanding is that the success rate for those in AA is exactly the same as for those who go it alone.

AA may lead you to believe you need a god to recover but statistics says different.
Click to expand...

In short, NO that is certain. Alcoholics produce chemicals in their brains that produce addiction and cravings. Very few true alcoholics can go it alone. Some may become dry for a short period but many relapse and go back to their old ways.

Show me "statistics" where those who do not believe in a higher power greater than themselves "recover". As of right now I spend 8 hours a day 4 meetings a day and for the past 30 days listening to people talking about relapse after relapse saying that they could never get past the 2nd & 3rd steps.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him.

Recovering isn't just about not drinking it is about not wanting to drink and becoming generally a good person. Its greatly needed brain washing, cleaning up the mess I became. Those who have done all the steps and continue their work in the program no longer desire to drink, even in cases of celebration & remorse. It is about removing the desire & obsession.

Understand AA is not cult to be debunked, it does not recruit nor promote and clearly states that in the 12 traditions.

12 traditions:

1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.
2. For our group purpose, there is but one ultimate authority--a loving God as he may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups of A.A. as a whole.
5. Each group has but one primary purpose--to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
9. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.
10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.
12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

It is only for those who want it.

I can swear on my very life that there is absolutely no way I could recover on my own. I tried to stop drinking on my own but for an alcoholic you cannot not drink.
I swore after loosing my job, I swore after loosing my house, I swore after loosing my car, I swore after loosing my credit, I swore after loosing girlfriend after girlfriend, I swore after I woke up in a gutter, and I swore after being dragged out of a bar and sent to live with my dad. No promise & no person could stop my madness and I had nothing left to loose but my life. I wanted nothing more than to stop drinking but I could not.

Alcoholics do not put a drink down one day and say I am done and I do not need anybody or anything to stop drinking and live happy lives. They keep drinking because drinking is the only thing they want and they have left.

Misinforming and claiming that "going it alone" will give you the same success rate as the AA program is more malicious than arson to a children's hospital. If every person with a DWI and DUI had the option to "go it alone" rather than a proven working program of AA the results would be horrific. How many of those alcoholics would drink again and then kill themselves or another human being through drunk driving?

AA does not "lead you to believe you need a god to recover" it blatantly tells you that without a "higher power" (Not always god, some people use the AA group itself as the higher power) you cannot recover.

AA teaches you that you do not need to be alone (I am not talking about God). It is a community of alcoholics whose purpose is to help you stay sober and to keep you living.

Frankly, there are no statistics that prove you right. AA is not the Bible that can be picked apart as woo. It works; it has been proven with countless doctors & testimony. Currently there are over 107,000 groups self-supporting through inside donations and volunteer work. Any success rate at all is better than none at all. Prove a better system that works and I swear on my life I will follow it.

If anything AA is unorganized religion there is no absolute god, and the only rule to be a member is a desire to stop drinking. The only belief is in a higher power that could restore us to sanity. It could be the universe, a coffee cup, your dead mother, the AA group itself, or a god you make up and designate. New people come and go daily like church however it is not for those that need it but only for those that want it.

Do not confuse your apparent hate of religion with AA being a cult. People hope that you will not leave the program to go out drinking again but no one will ever stop you. Like I mentioned before misinforming and claiming that "going it alone" will give you the same success rate as the AA program is more malicious than arson to a children's hospital.
Research before you type.
 
Magyar said:
I've found that the most ardent xians were x drug addicts and junkies.
They traded in one addiction which was Obviously destructive to one that is less obvious, but still is.
Click to expand...

...explain.

Is it faith or those who control it that corrupts it. Is it god or man who decides what is right. I swear on my life that every page of every relgious text was written by man. Blame not faith but the corrupt leaders who claim to rule such faiths. Its not the faith, its the establishment.
I am still a nihlist, yet I pray.
 
Hyparxis said:
Your danger is replacing one addiction with another; becoming addicted to your tools.
...
All of us have our addictions and function well if we can make of them harmless and manageable ones.
Click to expand...
If I have to pray to fictional gods to keep from waking up in gutters and from killing people through drunk driving then so be it.
 
Jekyll said:
Have you thought about having a look at Jungian Archetypes? The idea has been around long enough that I'm sure some of the psychotherapists have explanations for why they find the ideas useful even if the archetypes don't actually exist in any 'real' sense.
Click to expand...
Not yet, but it sounds interesting.
 
Shadow said:
If I have to pray to fictional gods to keep from waking up in gutters and from killing people through drunk driving then so be it.
Click to expand...

And praise whatever gods you create that so help you!

BTW along with Jung look into Joseph Campbell.
 
Shadow,

The way you format your posts makes it impossible to respond to your points so I will address the main ones only.

First off, there are statistics on AA success rates and they are exactly the same as the rates for spontaneous remission. See here: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

You Wrote: "Misinforming and claiming that "going it alone" will give you the same success rate as the AA program is more malicious than arson to a children's hospital."

There is no misinformation on my part. The success rate for AA is less than 5%. Some people will be more successful with AA but the same number will be equally as successful without it. The question arises: Is it the same people who would be successful no matter which way they went?

You Wrote: "AA does not "lead you to believe you need a god to recover" it blatantly tells you that without a "higher power". . . you cannot recover."

Then AA is blatantly wrong. There is no higher power when it comes to my life, than me. I am the only one that can change my behaviour, you are the only one that can change yours.

You Wrote: "AA teaches you that you do not need to be alone (I am not talking about God). It is a community of alcoholics whose purpose is to help you stay sober and to keep you living."

I never said anyone had to go it alone. I said they would be just as successful if they did.

You Wrote: "If anything AA is unorganized religion there is no absolute god, and the only rule to be a member is a desire to stop drinking. The only belief is in a higher power that could restore us to sanity."

I think that the only way to be successful in any endevour is to have a sincere desire to accomplish it. People who want to succeed at really difficult things need to have a deep desire to do it. Doctors, professional athletes, performers, etc., need this desire. In fact, anyone who wants to accomplish anything needs this desire.

Are you suggesting that alcoholics are insane? I know many but I do not know one that would be diagnosed as insane. A higher power cannot keep you sane anyway. No one can walk into an asylum and tell a patient to stop being insane and expect that to work.

You Wrote: ". . . or a god you make up and designate."

Okay, so what does it take to make something up and then make yourself believe it is true? How can you deceive yourself that easily?

You Wrote: "Do not confuse your apparent hate of religion with AA being a cult."

I do not hate religion. I get annoyed with people who believe, and teach others to believe, in make believe entities. There is not too much in this world that I hate. I also don't think AA is a cult. I just don't think it is very successful. I do think that it could maybe be successful, if people knew the truth about it. Realizing that something doesn't work and changing it to something that does, would be a huge step.

You Wrote: "Research before you type."

I would suggest you take your own advice. Your ideas come right out of the AA book. I know, I have read it. That book is based on people making things up as they went along and never having actually checked to see if it were true.

Telling someone that the only way they can succeed is to lay the responsibility at the feet of a higher power is a recipe for failure. Isn't it better to tell people that they are the only ones who can change their actions and, no matter how hard it is to hear, they will not recover until they take responsibility and decide to change their behaviour. Truth is always more successful than make believe.

Besides, the results can't be any worse than they already are. Perhaps an infusion of facts will help that.
 
considering all the lives and fortunes that have been given in sacrifice to various gods and their demands of followers, they could at least have the decency to be real
 
Kopji said:
considering all the lives and fortunes that have been given in sacrifice to various gods and their demands of followers, they could at least have the decency to be real
Click to expand...

That sounds like a new Ontological Argument.

God is Decency.
It would be indecent of God to not exist.
God by definition must be decent and behave decently, therefore God exists.

Unfortuantely for our Christian friends this is non-applicable to Jehovah who hasn't quite been a decent fellow.

Gayak, thanks for that very infomative contribution. One size doesn't fit all.
 
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