Hidden variables/functions

[mijopaalmc]

I apologize in advance for the length of the imbedded quotation, but I prefer, in this case, to let people speak for themselves when it comes to their positions.

(And as an aside if we have a sufficiently complex deterministic hidden function that is selecting 0 or 1 'behind the scenes' we can get much the same effect - we are not 'sure' about whether we are adding 0 or 1 this generation).

This is unnecessary multiplication of entities to maintain a deterministic universe. We know that certain random systems have to converge on an expected value if the sampling criteria are kept constant over long periods of time.

Why this insistence on hidden variables?

Aren't hidden variable by their very definition unfalsifiable phenomena?

How would one prove that hidden variables exist without in some way proving what they are?

This is unnecessary multiplication of entities to maintain a deterministic universe.
Why this insistence on hidden variables?Aren't hidden variable by their very definition unfalsifiable phenomena?

Non-****ing-sequitur. Try to keep on track. Anyway.

Why this insistence on hidden variables?Aren't hidden variable by their very definition unfalsifiable phenomena?

*SIGH*

I am not the one proposing ANY physical consequences - I am merely pointing out the mathematical consequences. And that there certainly could be entirely deterministic phenomena that are unfalsifiable by virtue of 'hidden' variables - and I say 'hidden' because they could be in plain sight but just far too hard to analyse by virtue of the complexity of the system - is, I'm afraid, a consequence of the tools we have to reason about the universe. There is, by definition, no way to know.

I am, therefore, flexible when choosing my abstractions. Something you are clearly incapable of doing when you insist, quite irrationally, upon one or the other.

The content and questions of diverge from the topic of the thread in which the post occurs, so I am starting this thread.

 

[mijopaalmc]

..

 

[Yiab]

How would one prove that hidden variables exist without in some way proving what they are?

Very simply (in overview).
We have some event and we understand a lot of things which influence its outcome. We develop a mathematical model which describes the way in which the various things we are aware of influence the event. We see that the event's actual outcomes are very close to our model's predictions, but we're not quite at 100%. This tells us that our model is probably good, but there are probably other things influencing the outcome of which we are unaware. After a thorough search we can find nothing else, so we deduce that there is something influencing the outcome which we cannot find and call it a "hidden variable".
This says nothing about the nature of the hidden variable beyond the fact that we can't figure anything out about it.

By the way, arguing that the universe is somehow not entirely natural is simply proposing that these "hidden variables" are actually things outside the natural world, not claiming that they don't exist.

Aren't hidden variable by their very definition unfalsifiable phenomena?

No. For one, if we later discover what one of the variables is, it is no longer hidden. For another, if we develop another mathematical model which explains things better without the hidden variables, then we no longer need to include the hidden variables.

Although, in a sense you are correct; you are correct in the sense that mathematics as a whole is unfalsifiable.