Help with English

[Puppycow]

The reason I am starting this thread is to get feedback from native speakers of English from different regions and countries about common English usage. I am currently reviewing a book of common English sentences that is very popular in Japan, although it was written quite a few years ago (1968 and updated in 1986). While most of the sentences seem to still be current, some of them seem a bit dated, or less common idiomatically than possible alternatives with the same meaning. I personally grew up in upstate New York, but I want to check what other English speakers think. So, when responding please give your geographic background. This is just a small sample for now, but if this works out I may post more later.

In the examples below, the first sentence under each heading is from the book, and the second (and later) are my idea of a more common, or up-to-date way of expressing the same thing. Do you agree that the sentences are odd or out of date? And what about my alternative, or do you have a different one? (Just to clarify beforehand, I'm not interested in slang, but just common colloquial language)

p.6
4. It is a pity that a man of your ability should remain unknown to the world.
It's too bad that a man of your ability remains unknown to the world.

p.8
16. I could not find my brother who was to meet me at the station.
I could not find my brother who was supposed to meet me at the station.

17. I disliked the idea of the necessary call, but it was to be done.
I disliked the idea of the necessary call, but it had to be done.

18. Nothing was to be heard except the sound of the waves.
Nothing could be heard except the sound of the waves.

19. If you are to make a success of writing, you have to work hard.
If you want to be successful at writing, you have to work hard.

p.10
29. As I was free after a long interval yesterday, I enjoyed playing tennis with my friends.
Since I was free for the first time in ages yesterday, I enjoyed playing tennis with my friends.

33. The train was behind time, so I could not reach there on time.
The train was behind schedule, so I could not reach there on time.
or
The train was late, so I could not reach there on time.

p.12
38. I hear he is to go abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
I hear he is going to go abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
or
I hear he is going abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.

45. As it is cold, you may keep your overcoat on.
Since it is cold, you can keep your coat on.

p.14
48. She came very near [to] being run over by a motorcar.
She came very near [to] being run over by a car.

p.16
67. I was engaged in it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
I did it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
or
I was in it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
or
I worked in the business (field) for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.

69. The bill was passed by a majority, though the Socialist Party were strongly opposed to it.
The bill was passed by a majority, though the Socialist Party was strongly opposed to it.
(Would the British prefer the original one , I wonder?)

p.18
75. Those who are delicate in health are apt (liable) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.
Those who are in poor health are liable (prone) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.

p.20
83. Mother is more anxious about the result of the examination than I am.
My mother is more worried about the result of the exam than I am.

90. You must put up with your new post for the present. I'll find you a better place one of these days.
You'll have to put up with your new job for the time being. I'll find you a better place one of these days.

92. I cannot afford to leave you idle. You must take up a regular occupation.
I can't afford to let you slack off. You have to get a regular job.

p.22
97. I want you to be present at the wedding ceremony, for you are an old friend of the bridegroom's.
I want you to be at the wedding ceremony, because you are an old friend of the groom's.

104. I would have somebody sweep this room clean.
I'd (I would) like to have somebody sweep this room clean.

p.24
107. I'm sorry to have kept you waiting long. A visitor has kept me busy till now.
I'm sorry to have kept you waiting so long. A visitor has kept me busy till now.

 

[Brown]

Many of the original sentences seem to me to be "British English," as opposed to "American English."

Americans do not use terms like "behind time" or "motorcar." Americans would not say " I would have somebody sweep this room clean," as it would sound unnecessarily formal and pretentious to an American. Referring to a politcal party (or a team or other groups of persons) in the plural sense is also a British practice, and not an American practice.

Some forms of "British English" seem stilted or awkward by today's standards. They seem especially so to Americans.

As I understand it, the British had considerable influence upon certain modern Japanese words. For example, most of the parts of an automobile are Japanese versions of English words, and the front compartment is the "bonetto," which suggests an influence of the British term "bonnet" over the American term "hood." I confess I haven't really delved into the dynamics of which version of English contributed to the Japanese vocabulary, or how the influence of different versions of English affected Japanese. But perhaps the British influence is responsible for the distinctly British flavor of the sentences in the phrasebook.

It may also be worth noting that English (like Japanese) includes several "politeness" levels. It would not be unusual for a phrasebook to include phrases that tend toward formality and politeness, rather than toward familiarity. It is generally a good idea to err on the side of being more polite and formal. This may account in part for the fact that some of the "common English sentences" are more formal and less colloquial.

 

[Jeff Corey]

I grew up in Connecticut and have lived on Long Island for over half my life.
Most of your versions are more like what I would say, except for #83, where I'd be equally apt to say "anxious" or "worried".

I agree with Brown about the Britishisms. "He went to hospital after his auto was hit in the car park."

 

[Cecil]

Most of your versions are what I would say, with a couple of exceptions.

Originally posted by Puppycow
p.14
48. She came very near [to] being run over by a motorcar.
She came very near [to] being run over by a car.

104. I would have somebody sweep this room clean.
I'd (I would) like to have somebody sweep this room clean.

I'd say "She was almost run over by a car" and "I'd like someone to clean this room".

 

[Puppycow]

Thank you for the responses so far. It is true that that book seems to be a book of British English. In other sentences that I did not include the British spelling is used, but those differences alone were too mundane to include. I think Cecil's sentences are also probably more common in North America than my formulations, although this particular usage of "come near to" I thought was an interesting pattern even though it means the same as "almost" and is probably less common. It is true that the language is polite, and I don't want to make changes that would make it less polite. (The sentence about getting a job is sort of an exception, because it seems to be a situation that calls for frankness, and would be between intimates, like a father to his son. The Japanese translation in the text in fact uses the term "omae" for the English "you," and "omae" is generally reserved only for parents (or mentor types like a coach) speaking to their children.)

As far as the influence of British English in Japan goes, I don't think it is more prevalent, because the US occupied Japan after WWII, but certainly there have also been British who come here to teach English and Japanese who have studied in Britain. It is perhaps considered the more "elite" or "correct" version of English, by some.

 

[arcticpenguin]

Here's something about software to paraphrase sentences: http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2003/120303/Software_paraphrases_sentences_120303.html

 

[mummymonkey]

A UK point of view. These are my preferences. That's not to say they are more or less correct.

It is a pity that a man of your ability should remain unknown to the world.
It's too bad that a man of your ability remains unknown to the world.
The first

I could not find my brother who was to meet me at the station.
I could not find my brother who was supposed to meet me at the station.
The second

I disliked the idea of the necessary call, but it was to be done.
I disliked the idea of the necessary call, but it had to be done.
The second. The first sounds very odd

Nothing was to be heard except the sound of the waves.
Nothing could be heard except the sound of the waves.
The second

If you are to make a success of writing, you have to work hard.
If you want to be successful at writing, you have to work hard.
The meaning is slightly changed but either is okay

As I was free after a long interval yesterday, I enjoyed playing tennis with my friends.
Since I was free for the first time in ages yesterday, I enjoyed playing tennis with my friends.
The second but keeping 'as' instead of 'since'

The train was behind time, so I could not reach there on time.
The train was behind schedule, so I could not reach there on time.
or
The train was late, so I could not reach there on time.
The third, perhaps 'arrived late' would sound better

I hear he is to go abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
I hear he is going to go abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
or
I hear he is going abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
The last one but I would probably say 'to study'

As it is cold, you may keep your overcoat on.
Since it is cold, you can keep your coat on.
The first but use 'can' instead of 'may'

She came very near [to] being run over by a motorcar.
She came very near [to] being run over by a car.
The second, motorcar sounds old-fashioned

I was engaged in it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
I did it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
or
I was in it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
or
I worked in the business (field) for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
The second or last.

The bill was passed by a majority, though the Socialist Party were strongly opposed to it.
The bill was passed by a majority, though the Socialist Party was strongly opposed to it.
(Would the British prefer the original one , I wonder?)
Either

Those who are delicate in health are apt (liable) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.
Those who are in poor health are liable (prone) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.
'in poor health' sounds better but changes the meaning slightly. Apt, liable and prone all sound okay.

Mother is more anxious about the result of the examination than I am.
My mother is more worried about the result of the exam than I am.
If talking to a family member the first. Else the second

You must put up with your new post for the present. I'll find you a better place one of these days.
You'll have to put up with your new job for the time being. I'll find you a better place one of these days.
The second

I cannot afford to leave you idle. You must take up a regular occupation.
I can't afford to let you slack off. You have to get a regular job.
I wouldn't use 'idle' or 'slack off'. I can't afford to leave you unoccupied. You must get a regular job.

I want you to be present at the wedding ceremony, for you are an old friend of the bridegroom's.
I want you to be at the wedding ceremony, because you are an old friend of the groom's.
The second but retaining 'bridegroom's'

I would have somebody sweep this room clean.
I'd (I would) like to have somebody sweep this room clean.
The first sounds like advice; the second a request.

I'm sorry to have kept you waiting long. A visitor has kept me busy till now.
I'm sorry to have kept you waiting so long. A visitor has kept me busy till now.
Probably the latter, perhaps dropping the word 'long' altogether

 

[Puppycow]

Thanks for the further responses. The article on paraphrasing software was an interesting read. I work in the translation business, and while machine translation is still pretty far off, I'm beginning to think it may become a reality some day (hopefully not putting me out of a job. )

I was happy to get a reponse from Britain. It seems in most cases we are in agreement.

Those who are delicate in health are apt (liable) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.Those who are in poor health are liable (prone) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.
'in poor health' sounds better but changes the meaning slightly. Apt, liable and prone all sound okay.

I had slight doubts about this too. While the meaning does seem slightly different, I was unable to think of a common way of saying "delicate in health." Perhaps "with a weak constitution"? The concept exists, but it just doesn't seem to be something people use much anymore. Maybe "with a weak immune system"?

I would have somebody sweep this room clean.
I'd (I would) like to have somebody sweep this room clean.
The first sounds like advice; the second a request.

It depends on the context. The Japanese translation in the original says "I want to have..." meaning it is intended to be a request. I think this pattern existed in the past, but has mostly fallen into disuse.

Regarding the difference between "make a success of" and "be succesful at," I was of the opinion that the essential meaning was the same, but I wonder what you think the difference is?

 

[epepke]

The reason I am starting this thread is to get feedback from native speakers of English from different regions and countries about common English usage.

Native speaker here, New York and Florida, though I've spent some considerable time in London. Also a certified teacher of English as a foreign language.

4. It is a pity that a man of your ability should remain unknown to the world.
It's too bad that a man of your ability remains unknown to the world.

Good rewrite, but I think that "It's too bad someone with your ability isn't better known" would be more natural.

16. I could not find my brother who was to meet me at the station.
I could not find my brother who was supposed to meet me at the station.

I think that both are acceptable. More likely, you'd see "I couldn't find my brother. He was supposed to meet me at the station."

17. I disliked the idea of the necessary call, but it was to be done.
I disliked the idea of the necessary call, but it had to be done.

In this one, "the necessary call" doesn't even really scan. Does the speaker receive or initiate the (telephone) call, or was it a personal visit? "I didn't want to call him, but I had to." "I didn't want to see him, but I had to."

18. Nothing was to be heard except the sound of the waves.
Nothing could be heard except the sound of the waves.

Good rewrite. No problems. However, "but" is often used instead of "except."

19. If you are to make a success of writing, you have to work hard.
If you want to be successful at writing, you have to work hard.

Again, good rewrite.

29. As I was free after a long interval yesterday, I enjoyed playing tennis with my friends.
Since I was free for the first time in ages yesterday, I enjoyed playing tennis with my friends.

Good on the "first time in ages." "As I was free" versus "since I was free" is pretty much of a toss-up.

33. The train was behind time, so I could not reach there on time.
The train was behind schedule, so I could not reach there on time.
or
The train was late, so I could not reach there on time.

The latter rewrite is good. The former rewrite is colloquial British.

Also, "arrive" might be better than "reach there."

38. I hear he is to go abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
I hear he is going to go abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
or
I hear he is going abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.

Again, a bit of a toss-up here. "He is to go abroad" is more formal. "Abroad" is particularly British. In the US, we'd probably say "overseas" or even just "away." "He is going abroad" is a bit better than the alternatives.

45. As it is cold, you may keep your overcoat on.
Since it is cold, you can keep your coat on.

Again, a bit of a toss-up. Your rewrite is less formal.

p.14
48. She came very near [to] being run over by a motorcar.
She came very near [to] being run over by a car.

"Motorcar" is British. A more colloquial expression would be, "She almost got run over by a car."

67. I was engaged in it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
I did it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
or
I was in it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
or
I worked in the business (field) for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.

First and third rewrites are good. Also, I try to encourage people to use "'til" or "til" instead of "till." While there is evidence of old use of "till," that was back when "until" was often spelled "untill."

69. The bill was passed by a majority, though the Socialist Party were strongly opposed to it.
The bill was passed by a majority, though the Socialist Party was strongly opposed to it.
(Would the British prefer the original one , I wonder?)

The use of plural verb conjugations for some nouns, like companies and governments, is British. It is becoming more commonplace in the US, though.

75. Those who are delicate in health are apt (liable) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.
Those who are in poor health are liable (prone) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.

I don't know. The second seems to have a different meaning from the first. "In poor health" seems to me to describe a current medical condition. "Delicate in health" seems to me to describe people who catch colds easily.

p.20
83. Mother is more anxious about the result of the examination than I am.
My mother is more worried about the result of the exam than I am.

It's a toss-up here.

90. You must put up with your new post for the present. I'll find you a better place one of these days.
You'll have to put up with your new job for the time being. I'll find you a better place one of these days.

Or possibly "assignment" instead of "job." And "position" instead of "place."

92. I cannot afford to leave you idle. You must take up a regular occupation.
I can't afford to let you slack off. You have to get a regular job.

Well, if you're doing contractions, it's a whole 'nother ball game. The rewrite is better.

p.22
97. I want you to be present at the wedding ceremony, for you are an old friend of the bridegroom's.
I want you to be at the wedding ceremony, because you are an old friend of the groom's.

A bit of a toss-up here. The latter is less formal, but people often talk more formally about weddings.

104. I would have somebody sweep this room clean.
I'd (I would) like to have somebody sweep this room clean.

This one is hard to made sense of. As written, it is an extremely high-status and somewhat contemptuous order, used by royalty, Mafiosi, and people who are quite pissed off. In any othe context, it would be rude. As such, I find it unlikely to find in a Japanese phrasebook. So I don't know what they are trying to say.

p.24
107. I'm sorry to have kept you waiting long. A visitor has kept me busy till now.
I'm sorry to have kept you waiting so long. A visitor has kept me busy till now.

Both are acceptable.

 

[Puppycow]

Thank you for the help epepke. The post above your post addresses some of the questions you raised.

As far as the "necessary call" goes, the Japanese translation is a visit, rather than a phone call. That should probably be changed too.

I'll be gone for the weekend before posting again.

 

[Lothian]

p.6
It's too bad that a man of your ability remains unknown to the world.

p.8
I could not find my brother who was supposed to meet me at the station.


I didn’t liked the idea of the call, but it had to be done.


Nothing could be heard except for the sound of the waves.


If you want to be successful at writing, you have to work hard.

p.10
Since I was free for the first time in ages yesterday, I enjoyed playing tennis with my friends.


The train was late, so I could not reach there on time.


I hear he is going abroad to study as soon as he graduates from school.

Since it is cold, you can keep your coat on.


She was nearly run over by a car.


I did it for three years, until I was twenty years old.

69. The bill was passed by a majority, though the Socialist Party were strongly opposed to it.


Those who are in poor health are liable (prone) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.


My mother is more worried about the result of the exam than I am.

.
You'll have to put up with your new job for the time being. I'll find you a better place one of these days.

I can't afford to let you slack off. You have to get a regular job.


I want you to be at the wedding ceremony, because you are an old friend of the groom's.


I'd would like someone to sweep this room clean.


I'm sorry to have kept you waiting so long. A visitor has kept me busy till now.

 

[mummymonkey]

Regarding the difference between "make a success of" and "be succesful at," I was of the opinion that the essential meaning was the same, but I wonder what you think the difference is?

It was the use of the word 'want' that I felt changed the meaning ever so slightly. Compare:
If you are to be successful at writing, you have to work hard.
If you want to be successful at writing, you have to work hard.
The second has a suggestion of "questioning desire" that the first lacks.

 

[tim]

I see mummymonkey has posted his preferences. I have made a point of not looking at his before I do the same. I note he's posting from Scotland (although that doesn't prove he's a Scot) - I'm from Southern England.
p.6
4. It is a pity that a man of your ability should remain unknown to the world.
It's too bad that a man of your ability remains unknown to the world.
number 1

p.8
16. I could not find my brother who was to meet me at the station.
I could not find my brother who was supposed to meet me at the station.
number 2

17. I disliked the idea of the necessary call, but it was to be done.
I disliked the idea of the necessary call, but it had to be done.
number 2

18. Nothing was to be heard except the sound of the waves.
Nothing could be heard except the sound of the waves.
number 1

19. If you are to make a success of writing, you have to work hard.
If you want to be successful at writing, you have to work hard.
number 1

p.10
29. As I was free after a long interval yesterday, I enjoyed playing tennis with my friends.
Since I was free for the first time in ages yesterday, I enjoyed playing tennis with my friends.
number 1

33. The train was behind time, so I could not reach there on time.
The train was behind schedule, so I could not reach there on time.
or
The train was late, so I could not reach there on time.
number 2

p.12
38. I hear he is to go abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
I hear he is going to go abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
or
I hear he is going abroad for study as soon as he graduates from school.
number 3

45. As it is cold, you may keep your overcoat on.
Since it is cold, you can keep your coat on.
number 1

p.14
48. She came very near [to] being run over by a motorcar.
She came very near [to] being run over by a car.
number 2 (few people use "motorcar" any more)

p.16
67. I was engaged in it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
I did it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
or
I was in it for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
or
I worked in the business (field) for three years, that is, till I was twenty years old.
number 4

69. The bill was passed by a majority, though the Socialist Party were strongly opposed to it.
The bill was passed by a majority, though the Socialist Party was strongly opposed to it.
(Would the British prefer the original one , I wonder?)
number 2 (the Socialist Party is singular, is it not? Hence "was")

p.18
75. Those who are delicate in health are apt (liable) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.
Those who are in poor health are liable (prone) to catch cold when the cold season sets in.
number 1

p.20
83. Mother is more anxious about the result of the examination than I am.
My mother is more worried about the result of the exam than I am.
number 1

90. You must put up with your new post for the present. I'll find you a better place one of these days.
You'll have to put up with your new job for the time being. I'll find you a better place one of these days.
number 1

92. I cannot afford to leave you idle. You must take up a regular occupation.
I can't afford to let you slack off. You have to get a regular job.
number 1

p.22
97. I want you to be present at the wedding ceremony, for you are an old friend of the bridegroom's.
I want you to be at the wedding ceremony, because you are an old friend of the groom's.
number 1, although I would use "because" rather than "for"

104. I would have somebody sweep this room clean.
I'd (I would) like to have somebody sweep this room clean.
number 2

p.24
107. I'm sorry to have kept you waiting long. A visitor has kept me busy till now.
I'm sorry to have kept you waiting so long. A visitor has kept me busy till now.
number 2

I suspect age may also have a fair bit to do with usage. I'm 53, so I learnt adult language in the 60s. When I hear TV clips from that era now, it seems strange, but I'm sure my English still retains a lot from that period.
(Thank god I wasn't brought up in the 70s - I might still be saying "Far out!"

 

[roger]

The train was late, so I could not get there in time.

I'm sorry to have kept you waiting. A visitor kept me busy.

or

I'm sorry to have kept you waiting. I was busy with a visitor.

 

[mummymonkey]

Re: Re: Help with English

I see mummymonkey has posted his preferences. I have made a point of not looking at his before I do the same. I note he's posting from Scotland (although that doesn't prove he's a Scot) - I'm from Southern England.

Yes, I'm Scottish although I spent ten years in the RAF, much of that time in England. I also spent 4 years abroad (Saudi) working with Aussies, Kiwis and Americans. Anytime I meat a Kiwi now they're amazed a Brit can tell they're not Australian. (Clue, Kiwis only use one vowel)

I suspect age may also have a fair bit to do with usage. I'm 53, so I learnt adult language in the 60s. When I hear TV clips from that era now, it seems strange, but I'm sure my English still retains a lot from that period.

I'm 40. I think my preferences are somewhat closer to puppycow. I have never said "far out"

 

[tim]

Re: Re: Re: Help with English

Yes, I'm Scottish although I spent ten years in the RAF, much of that time in England. I also spent 4 years abroad (Saudi) working with Aussies, Kiwis and Americans. Anytime I meat a Kiwi now they're amazed a Brit can tell they're not Australian. (Clue, Kiwis only use one vowel)

I'm 40. I think my preferences are somewhat closer to puppycow. I have never said "far out"

Erm.........do you really mean "meat" a Kiwi? surely that's illegal?
(and I DID say far out!)

 

[mummymonkey]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Help with English

Erm.........do you really mean "meat" a Kiwi? surely that's illegal?

It is? Well bugger me!

 

[Terry]

45. As it is cold, you may keep your overcoat on.
Since it is cold, you can keep your coat on.

Has the distinction between "may" and "can" been lost in modern usage? To me, "you may keep your coat on" means "I permit you to keep your coat on", whereas "you can keep your coat on" means "it is (physically) possible for you to keep your coat on".

--Terry

 

[mummymonkey]

Has the distinction between "may" and "can" been lost in modern usage? To me, "you may keep your coat on" means "I permit you to keep your coat on", whereas "you can keep your coat on" means "it is (physically) possible for you to keep your coat on".--Terry

Yes, I would say it has. When my kids ask me "Can I go outside?" They're asking for my permission, not my opinion. I've long since stopped trying to correct them.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Help with English

It is? Well bugger me!

Is the proper response to that, "My room or yours?"?