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Help - my son is being indoctrinated!

belinda

Thinker
belinda
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
148
My 5 year old has just started school (which is run by the presbetryian (sp?) and methodists) and is coming home with stories of how god made the world etc etc. :( Now I know I chose this school - in Oz if you really want a good private school you pretty much have to send them to one with religious affiliations - but where can I get the resources to show him that the judeo-xian ideas of creation are not the only ones. I was thinking something along the line of the many different creation myths (greek/hindu/etc ) and also showing simple picture books of what science tells us about the big bang and evolution.

I want him to make up his own mind - but at 5 it is soooo much easier to agree with the 25 people in your class and not just with Mum and Dad (who is a fence sitter)

Are there any other parents out there who have gone through the same thing. What resources did you use/where do you get them.
 
"good private school" and "religious affiliations" seem contradictory to me for some reason..
 
look into a Montessori school. The five year olds at the Montessori school where I teach are learning about the big bang. As an art teacher there one of my lessons is that we paint what we think the big bang looked like. the kids in upper el (4-6th grade) made heads of early humans out of clay.

Montessori may seem a little wacky, gets being self motivated to learn and all that. But it is very science based, and oddly enough the kids do learn to be self motivated. My eldest self motivated herself into the Ivy Leagues. Her classmates include Johns Hopkins and Brown among the places they self motivated to.

Oh, the Middle School read the play "Inherit the Wind". Oh yeah, that was a fun play to read...
 
One resource that was helpful in teaching my son: "Old Tales for a New Day" from Prometheus Books, a collection of creation myths from a variety of cultures. When you work something like this into the nightly reading rotation, children easily learn to see these as fascinating stories, without the expectation that any of them are "true."
 
I note the Australian connection, Belinda. Comments from someone who has been through the mill here.

Personally I would not be worried about it at this stage. At age 5 all kids will still have lots of fantasy and imagination involved in stories. He will be just as taken with Harry Potter and The BookMaster and all that stuff. The Christian myth will be just another one of the same, and probably way less appealing because it is hard to understand, and it will have little in the way of adventure or bloody gore and stuff. And it won't matter if he wants to join in with the 25 others - he would do just the same if they were talking about bikes or footy or witches or chewing gum or girls (girls! yuck!).

The Presbs and Methodists, i.e. The Uniting Church, tend to run a fairly liberal education program - the standard, acceptable, non-creationist science curriculum will be taught, no problem. Meanwhile, the religious component will remain separate, and will concentrate more noticeably on progressive Christian philosophy and not fundamentalism. The private schools aren't silly - they know that rabid fundy teaching significantly lowers the school's overall academic results, which drives potentially paying families such as yourself away...

Anyway, by the time he gets more seriously concerned about religious study a few years from now, you will have already demonstrated your own views to him at home.
 
Thanks for all the advice...particularly from Zep! I guess I was just a little bit freaked....this morning driving him to school (he is in Prep and has only been there 2 weeks) he came out with how God had made the world and lived up in the sky. I told him that some people didn't believe that, and that Mummy was one of them. He still insisted he was right - but I suppose that's just kids - they're right and you're wrong :D .

I like the idea of the story book from Prometheus, Wildflower - I will have to see if I can get it here.

As for Montessori schools - good idea Kittynh, but I don't think there is one in my state! Besides, the school he does go to is great....it just runs compulsory R.E. classes.

Zep - I think you will be right...in a few years time he will be able to make up his own mind - and as I said to my partner - I really don't care if he becomes Athiest, Agnostic, Catholic or Buddhist. As long as it is his choice and his (informed) decision. I speak as someone who until the age of about 12 didn't even know there were other religions other than R.C. - let along the idea of atheism. :p

Just a small panic attack.....thanks for putting up with it.:)

(edited for spelling)
 
Hey, my son went to Montessori pre-school. They are really really great. A lot of thinking skills are taught.

He is doing great in Kindergarten right now. If I could afford to keep him in Montessori I would. It is fairly cheap too. Just can't do it right now.

I hope there is one near you.
 
Hi belinda,

We have the exact same problem with our two oldest girls (8 and 4) who are going to a local Anglican church (I think that's Episcopalean in Australia - certainly in the states anyway . . .)

It really bothered me and I wanted to counter it as much as possible but at the same time, I was wary of trying to indoctinate them.

I also didn't want my eight year old (and she would) standing up in class and saying that her daddy thinks institutionalised religion is the biggest crock of self-serving, money-grabbibg, hypocritical sh** he's ever seen.

So I let them tell me about Jesus and sing me their little hymns and I say "that's nice" or "well done - nice singing".

If they ask me, I say "No, we don't go to church" or "No, I don't believe in that sort of thing".

They are smart girls and trust that, with appropriate alternative role models (ie me :) ), they will come to the "correct" position (ie mine :) ) in their own good time.

IMO, exploitation of ignorance is the greatest weapon of the religious. Your children's best defense against that is knowledge.

Never waste an opportunity to teach your child that some people are different than others and the THAT IS OK. If they say to you "My teacher says Jesus is the saviour of the world", for instance, you can say "Yes, that is what Christians believe. Muslims believe that Mohammed was a great prophet" and then discuss some of the differences and similarities between Islam and Christianity.

The more knowledge they have, the better equipped they will be to see the (let's face it fairly obvious) fallacies of modern religion, especially as it is taught to children.

If all else fails, remember that plety of people grow up religious and perfectly nice and decent. It's not the end of the world if your kids do too. They are believing in something that does not exist - it's not like they're worshipping the devil! :D

Graham
 
As far as I'm concerned it's your responsibility to explain to your child why christianity is bullsh*t from top to bottom, but at five the kid might not be old enough to follow along.

It's up to you to decide when your children are old enough to deal with ugly truths like those at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.shtml, or the various horrible web sites dealing with the torture devices used by christians in darker times. But they deserve to know that christianity is just one of many self-perpetuating stupidities, that it has a genuinely horrible history, and that it's intellectually empty.

There's a parallel thread right now about the unhappiness people experienced weaning themselves away from religious foolishness. Religion messes people up. Don't let it mess your children up.
 
belinda said:
My 5 year old has just started school (which is run by the presbetryian (sp?) and methodists) and is coming home with stories of how god made the world etc etc. :( Now I know I chose this school - in Oz if you really want a good private school you pretty much have to send them to one with religious affiliations - but where can I get the resources to show him that the judeo-xian ideas of creation are not the only ones. I was thinking something along the line of the many different creation myths (greek/hindu/etc ) and also showing simple picture books of what science tells us about the big bang and evolution.

I want him to make up his own mind - but at 5 it is soooo much easier to agree with the 25 people in your class and not just with Mum and Dad (who is a fence sitter)

Are there any other parents out there who have gone through the same thing. What resources did you use/where do you get them.
Click to expand...

Very interesting issue, and must be viewed in context. It comes down to the idea of what influences/factors eventually contribute (and at what strength) to the overall character/person of a child. As a parent, you probably have the greatest influence over the period where your child "learns the most". Your child is very young now, so I wouldn't worry too much about how your child will become an Xian heh One of the most important things a parent can do is make sure that their child grows up to be an intelligent invidividual, and by that I mean someone who possesses critical thinking skills (like the ones mentioned Here)
From my experiences in school, it seems like the primary focus is on teaching academic skills, to the detriment of moral ones. Perhaps they think that the social interaction between students/teachers at school will teach students morality in some roundabout way. Or, they expect that parents will teach the child moral skills at home. In any case, helping your child "be all that
he can be" is your main focus (as you well know), and helping him explicitly learn critical thinking skills goes a long way to do that.
 
Belinda- I think Zep is right on target here.
What you can do is keep him supplied with factual information. Don't lie to him- if he asks and you don't know, tell him that and then go find out together from library or internet. Keep him interested, let him read. Keep him exposed to different ideas.
He may end up Archbishop of Canterbury. You can't stop that and shouldn't try. If he grows up a sane, happy and decent human being, you will have done your bit. After that it's up to him.
 
My two daughters (biefly) attended a Presbyterian school. Once, after dropping them off, I had to drive home to get something one of them had forgotten.

When I returned, the teacher was taking attendance. When their name was called, instea of "here!", the children had to respond with "Jesus loves me!"

We pulled them from the school not long thereafter.
 
Graham said:
Hi belinda,

We have the exact same problem with our two oldest girls (8 and 4) who are going to a local Anglican church (I think that's Episcopalean in Australia - certainly in the states anyway . . .)
Click to expand...
Anglican, not Episcopalean. The Queen's mob. I had private Anglican education in my final years at school.

Funnily enough, we also had professed Catholics, Methodists, Buddhists and atheists in that school. Everyone knew, no-one cared. The main criteria for students attending was the high quality scholarship provided, not the religious fervour. Some of the teachers were also Anglican ministers, but in no way did they preach to us - they were totally tolerant and understanding of the other religious beliefs held. Religious discussions were...spirited and broad-ranging! A bit like being here on the JREF forum...
 
I'm not entirely sure how much of his religous talk is school related or simply a developmental stage. My six year old son goes to public school, and has heard some god stuff there, probably from the other kids (and hopefully not from a teacher).

A while back, he ran up to me and said "God made me." I replied "Uh.. god made you do what?" I thought he had done something naughty and was tattling on himself. He just repeated "God made me," and started to run off. I yelled after him "Hey, I made you... out of peanut butter and bananas." He was really made out of chocolate and coffee- it's the other kid that was made out of peanut butter, but that's beside the point.

Anyway, the kids I know who are 4-5-6-7 seem to have alot of interest in how things are made or come about. This seems to be the "Who, What, When, Where, Why and How" stage.

We live in a heavily Catholic community, so when the topic comes up with my kids, I usually lead with "Some people believe.." and end up with "I don't believe this, but you'll have to decide for yourself." My kids seem to prefer the Greek gods to the one currently in favor here, thanks to the movie "Hercules" and "D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths".

Now, one of my neighbors and a co-worker told me that atheists were caused by poor parenting, that it is important to "get to the kids while they are young", and that "you had to suffer the little children" or something (I don't recall the exact wording, but it is a popular religous phrase). I usually just bow out or wander off when these conversations begin.

This neighbor doesn't have a clue as to what I believe. She never asked, I never told, and she probably simply assumes I believe- like herself and everyone else in the area. I actually find it odd that no one has asked why they never see us the giant local church, but they never have and I don't bring it up.

But, I am on high alert because I don't want anyone "getting" my kids in this way or any other way. I think it's kinda creepy that religous folks think you have to 'get' kids while they are young, and I definately do not want my kids to be 'pre-programmed'. I want them to think for themselves.
 
Well, that's why skeptic parents have to "get them while they are young" too. I know more skeptics who say, "when my kid starts to ask questions..." or "when he/she is older...."

Michael Shermer has a great book and teaching your child science. It's full or practical everyday things you can do to encourage scientific thinking in REALLY young kids.

I'm sure we've all read Richard Feynmans books. His stories about how "hanging out with his dad" shaped his life are remarkable. It's the everyday interactions, and making available childrens books that reflect your beliefs that allow the child to make an educated decision later in life. If they aren't getting it at school, they should get it at home.

Of course, the best lesson is a good example. If you are a moral atheist, who enjoys life and is happy - that will do much to defeat the arguements of those who say religion is the only answer.
 
I just got Shermer's book from the library last week! Also, I remember reading "Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynman" several years ago. It may still be in my bookshelf.
 
How Randi helped my husband and me to bring up a child who can think for himself:

In the middle 1980s, my husband and I took our son - who was eight years old at the time - to a CSICOP awards dinner, primarily because we wanted to see Penn and Teller and tickets to the New York show were unobtainable.

As we waited to enter the conference hall, Randi spotted my son, asked him if he was a skeptic too, then engaged him in a few card tricks to entertain Carl Sagan and others who were also waiting. Then Randi frowned deeply, put his fingers to his temples, and intoned, "I'm getting the name 'Chris.' Does that mean anything to you?" Our eight year old pondered a minute, looked down at his name tag, then looked - skeptically! - back up at Randi.

Randi smiled, ruffled his hair, and muttered "Smart kid."
 
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