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Help! 9/11 conspiracy theory.

SquishyDave

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May 27, 2003
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My boss thinks that the US government knew those planes were coming, and let it happen. And also that there was no plane that crashed into the pentagon, but a missle or some such. I need help.

He wants proof that a plane did in fact crash into the pentagon. Photographic evidence of the crash site with identifiable plane remains would do. I fear the plane was too mashed up by the highly reinforced pentagon structure to allow for this though.

He read a book called Crossing the Rubicon by Michael Ruppert.

Any help would be appreciated, a webpage that deals with this book, or some info anyone may have would be wonderful.

Thank you kindly.
 
SquishyDave said:
My boss thinks that the US government knew those planes were coming, and let it happen. And also that there was no plane that crashed into the pentagon, but a missle or some such. I need help.

He wants proof that a plane did in fact crash into the pentagon. Photographic evidence of the crash site with identifiable plane remains would do.
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Your boss is an unmitigated idiot. Tell him I said so.

For a summary that might be simple enough for even him to understand, try http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Better yet, have him call the families of the victims of American Flight 77 and ask them where their loved ones went.

- Timothy
 
I can only offer that I was in Bethesda, MD at the time of the 9/11 attacks and was speaking to my wife on the phone about the WTC's while looking out my office window that faces the direction of the pentagon(roughly 8 miles). I saw with my own two eyes the plane as it went down, the explosion and the resulting smoke.

Not a photograph, but forever etched in my minds eye.
 
SquishyDave said:
My boss thinks that the US government knew those planes were coming, and let it happen. And also that there was no plane that crashed into the pentagon, but a missle or some such. I need help.
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The second claim, as many people have shown, is very silly.

The first claim is probably impossible to disprove, if you allow sufficient backpedalling about who knew what when.

It's a matter of public record that Bush was briefed on the possibility of Al Qaeda attacking the USA shortly before 9/11 and he didn't do anything useful. You can fit that into a conspiracy theory, or you can find innocent explanations. The same goes for the handful of other funny incidents that are brought up by the 9/11 conspiracy theory crowd. It goes for the handful of such incidents that are actually true, anyway, as opposed to made up.

The minimalist version of the conspiracy theory is that unnamed government insiders (or, equally popular, Israeli intelligence) had some idea what the 9/11 hijackers were up to and deliberately failed to stop them, and really, how on earth are you going to disprove that?

Given that there is no decent evidence for these conspiracy theories I think the skeptical thing to do is to put them aside until and unless some unexpected smoking gun emerges. Which I consider unlikely. Disproving the less lurid conspiracy theories is impossible, since they have been specifically constructed after the event to fit the available facts.
 
SquishyDave said:
My boss thinks that the US government knew those planes were coming, and let it happen.
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You mean Bush's response at the elementary school was planned!? Wow!

or is he suggesting that some rogue group that did not include the highest levels of the executive branch did all this? Be sure and ask him how many people were involved in this multi-city attack.
 
GroundStrength said:
I can only offer that I was in Bethesda, MD at the time of the 9/11 attacks and was speaking to my wife on the phone about the WTC's while looking out my office window that faces the direction of the pentagon(roughly 8 miles). I saw with my own two eyes the plane as it went down, the explosion and the resulting smoke.

Not a photograph, but forever etched in my minds eye.
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And here we have an eyewitness who was 8 miles away. The area around the Pentagon (which is no small building) at 9:37AM on a typical weekday is swarming with people and vehicles. There were hundreds of witnesses. One man on the Pentagon grounds actually felt compelled to duck as the plane went over his head. Light poles in the plane's path were sheared off. What else do people need to be convinced? I'm tired of hearing about the lack of airplane debris. Jetliners are comparitively fragile things; they are built for light weight and some flexibility. They are not wrecking balls. The Pentagon, meanwhile, is no ordinary building--it's more like a bunker. You would expect an airplane hitting the Pentagon to be obliterated. It did what it was designed to do--protect its occupants.
 
you can have him talk to me, if he would not assume I'm part of the plot. I was in the building, ended up helping burned people, a guy with a head wound, helping with other stuff, saw other stuff. I picked up parts of an AIRPLANE covered in jet fuel. I truly hate the conspiracy fools, as that was the 2nd worst day of my life, and they mock the pain. I still have nightmares most nights from 9/11, it's messed up my life to a significant degree. Of course, he might just assume I'm part of the plot, as I said. If so, he can talk to the then-5 year old daughter of the general here. This kid was outside with the other kids at the day care. They all watched the plane hit. Tough to get 5 year olds in on the plot, I think.
 
Hal Bidlack said:
you can have him talk to me...
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Well said Hal. These conspiracy nuts really irk me. They take half truths and mis-information and create... crap! Such a complete slap in the face to the victims and their families.
 
If that flight didnt crash into the pentagon then where is the plane? Where are the people who were on it?

Tell him to write to the families and tell them that their loved ones may still be alive because the pentagon crash didnt happen and he has proof.
 
ObscureReferenceMan said:
Well said Hal. These conspiracy nuts really irk me. They take half truths and mis-information and create... crap! Such a complete slap in the face to the victims and their families.
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I agree.

What, was it not 'exciting' enough that terrorists murdered a planeload of people and all those people in the Pentagon? We have to make stuff up as well?

And why? We know that other planes were crashed into buildings at the same time so why would this one be a missile?

The only real response to anyone we meet who says such things should be STFU.

I know it's harder with a boss, but really, anyone claiming such things is being childish and offensive.
 
Well, thank you all very much. He has now changed his mind about the pentagon plane. But as said in this thread, proving or disproving that they US government knew about this and let it happen is somewhat difficult.

He claimed to be willing to change his mind, and he has. From what I know of him he is willing to admit he's wrong, but I suspect he has some need to believe the US government is a pack of bastards, so shaking him of the idea they let it happen will be tricky.

Thanks GroundStrength and Psi Baba, eyewitness testimony is shakey sometimes, but compelling. It's hard to mix up a plane and a rocket though.

Thank you especially to Hal, it's easy to forget in Australia that this is more than an acedemic debate on conspiracy theories. People died.

Ok he sent me this webpage now
http://www.911dossier.co.uk/pen08.html
I will look it over shortly, I just wanted to let you know we have at least chipped away at one bit of ignorance. Good work!
 
SquishyDave said:
.Any help would be appreciated, a webpage that deals with this book, or some info anyone may have would be wonderful.

Thank you kindly.
Click to expand...


Here's an idea: Ask your boss how all the conspiracy-theorizing in the world is going to bring back any of the close to 3,000 people killed on that day. If he could reunite just ONE perished individual with his or her friends and family members....THEN...we'll have something to talk about! ! ! ! ! ! !

Until then, it's a moot point either way you look at it.

So just tell him (as kindly and respectfully as you can without losing your job ---though personally, I think that would be a blessing, since I wouldn't want to work for such a perverted moron like that anyway!) that he has too much time on his hands and to get a life.

Some issues in life are not about being "right" or "wrong" in some pedantic, academic sense but more so about being sensitive to the issues of other people around you. Though I don't personally know of anyone who was lost on that day, the idea of, let's say, my best friend faking his own death because his plane never really crashed into the pentagon, would be outright offensive and morally egregious to say the very least, that's the bottom line!

Tell your boss to think about THAT!!!!!
 
Re: Re: Help! 9/11 conspiracy theory.

tommyz said:
Here's an idea: Ask your boss how all the conspiracy-theorizing in the world is going to bring back any of the close to 3,000 people killed on that day. If he could reunite just ONE perished individual with his or her friends and family members....THEN...we'll have something to talk about! ! ! ! ! ! !

Until then, it's a moot point either way you look at it.
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Well, if there was convincing evidence that 9/11 was staged or allowed to happen by the US government that would be kind of important.

It's just that there isn't any such evidence.

Some issues in life are not about being "right" or "wrong" in some pedantic, academic sense but more so about being sensitive to the issues of other people around you. Though I don't personally know of anyone who was lost on that day, the idea of, let's say, my best friend faking his own death because his plane never really crashed into the pentagon, would be outright offensive and morally egregious to say the very least, that's the bottom line!

Tell your boss to think about THAT!!!!!
Click to expand...

I have seen conspiracy theories that the people on the Pentagon flight (and possibly the other flights) were murdered by conspirators as part of their terrible, and terribly complicated, plot. If that was the case then that too would be kind of important to the relatives of the deceased.

It's just that again, there is no convincing evidence this was the case.
 
One problem with the conspiracy theory is that it requires the government and the current administration to be very clever and well organized. Maybe you should ask your boss if he really believes, based on other evidence and experience, that the government does things with such precision, efficiency and intelligence? For most people, the phrase "government operation" suggests the opposite: waste, inefficiency, incompetence, corruption, leakage and boondoggles. Why should the circumstances surrounding 9/11 be so different?

I find the competing theory much more compelling: that the government is inefficient, bulky and badly organized, and the administration stupid, disconnected from reality, and cynical.
 
SquishyDave said:
My boss thinks that the US government knew those planes were coming, and let it happen. And also that there was no plane that crashed into the pentagon, but a missle or some such. I need help.

He wants proof that a plane did in fact crash into the pentagon. Photographic evidence of the crash site with identifiable plane remains would do. I fear the plane was too mashed up by the highly reinforced pentagon structure to allow for this though.

He read a book called Crossing the Rubicon by Michael Ruppert.
Click to expand...

I'm very familiar with Ruppert (ww.copvcia.com). Popular Mechanics did a cover story a while ago on 9/11 theories. Though Ruppert was explicitly singled out, certain arguments he uses are disproved.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Ruppert's "Truth and Lies of 9/11" can be downloaded on any P2P to see his main arguments without reading his book. If you take the time to read the book, drink lots of coffee to avoid falling alseep.
 
As little as I like our current president, I would have to say that there are many in the world whose hatred for him allows them to believe absolutely anything bad said about him and attribute every disaster to him. Several authors have found this hatred to be a rich vein of income and they realize that no matter how absurd their theory, some Bush/America haters will buy it.

Did you know that the tsunami was caused by secret under-ocean weapons testing?
 
Hal Bidlack said:
you can have him talk to me, if he would not assume I'm part of the plot.
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But that will be his out:

"Well, since you're in the military, you are obviously in on the plot, too. You worked close to the President, right?"

Hal Bidlack said:
I truly hate the conspiracy fools
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Seconded.

I lived in NYC on 9/11. Anyone who wants to make themselves interesting by claiming a huge government conspiracy is pissing on almost 3,000 dead people and broken families.
 
Re: Re: Re: Help! 9/11 conspiracy theory.

Kevin_Lowe said:
I have seen conspiracy theories that the people on the Pentagon flight (and possibly the other flights) were murdered by conspirators as part of their terrible, and terribly complicated, plot.
Click to expand...

And that's where they fail. In order to explain their wacky theories, they have to come up with increasingly elaborate explanations. Each time one of their points are refuted, they explain it away with something even more outlandish.

The more complicated it gets, the more difficult it is to keep a lid on it. The more simple it is, the more effective. What's more likely?

  1. Create a huge conspiracy, involving high US government officials (even the President), hatching a plan that will result in fear among Americans (and the rest of the world), kill thousands of innocent Americans. Send some bozos to flight school, and have them fly the planes into the WTC exactly where the huge bombs were placed long time ago. Deliberately delay the fighter planes, so they can't intercept the hijacked planes. Somehow, blow up the Pentagon by somehow putting a huge bomb there. Have the fourth plane shot down by fighters. And so on, and so on.

    or
  2. Hijack as many planes as you can, and fly them into buildings of importance, catching the Bad Americans with their trousers down.
 
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