• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Hell: Eternal Punishment... right?

What's to think about?

You link to some guy who's analyzing some texts and trying to come up with an internally-consistent interpretation of those texts, using a variety of terms of art with definitions unique to the field of study to which those texts belong.

Unless you are a scholar in that field, or a lay person with a special interest in finding the best scholarly interpretations of those texts, how could you possibly have a relevant or even meaningful opinion on such a subject?
 
I never really understood why the whole punishment bit, temporary or permanent, was necessary. If a person (soul, whatever) is/was good, send them on to some reward. If he/she/it was really that bad, just make them cease to exist. Punishment seems unecessarily cruel and vindictive to me, even on a short term basis. If you do not plan to keep them there and eventually mean to send them on to paradise anyway, what is the point of the torture? Just whack 'em on the nose with a newspaper, yell "Bad!", and carry on. Hint to god, this works best as a training tool if you do this as soon as you catch them in the act of breaking the rules, not decades later.

But then again, I admit that there is quite a bit regarding Christianity I never really understood.
 
Why not take out the "punishment" bit altogether then? Why not just go straight to death, like all the evidence points to anyway?

Hell is just a sado-masochistic way to manipulate people into fear. Now they want to tell peopl: "When you die, you'll get punished for all you sins, and then you'll die for real!" Get real. Just adding another elvel of stupidity to the whole thing. There's still zero evidence for it.
 
TinfoilCat said:
Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
No, seriously, what's the point of this thread? Is anybody here going to engage in a learned theological debate with the guy on the other end of your link? Is anybody here seriously going to express thoughts any different from the thoughts they've expressed thousands of times before?

It's not like this is the 9/11 Conspiracy theory forums, which are frequented by active subject-matter experts (structural engineers, ATCs, etc.) and talented lay researchers (e.g., Gravy).

Why ask these people, in this forum, for "thoughts" on this subject? Why not go to a theology forum, or a Textual Criticism forum, where actual subject-matter experts representing hundreds if not thousands of years of study among them could give you a detailed analysis of these and many other conundrums?
 
Pardalis said:
Why not take out the "punishment" bit altogether then? Why not just go straight to death, like all the evidence points to anyway?

Hell is just a sado-masochistic way to manipulate people into fear. Now they want to tell peopl: "When you die, you'll get punished for all you sins, and then you'll die for real!" Get real. Just adding another elvel of stupidity to the whole thing. There's still zero evidence for it.
Click to expand...
This is what jehovah Witnesses to unrepentant sinners already.
 
There is also a text (didn't get included in the New Testamen Canon, for reasons which will become clear) that says that people will be tortured in Hell, but if one person asks God to pity the damned, everyone it freed from the bonds of damnation.

Can't remeber the text I'm referring to.
 
OK, I have had a chance to read through some of the paper linked in the OP. I would be very wary of any exegesis of the existence, properties, and point of Hell, especially when using OT texts. The concept, and even the naming, of Hell changes dramatically from source to source. The older translations (such as the KJV), pretty much turn everything into "Hell", where there were a few different concepts under different names in the original texts.

For more information, this thread was particularly helpful.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86948
 
When I was a teenager, I was given a pamphlet by Frank S. C. Wicks, called "Good Men in Hell", a copy of which I still have.

In it, he describes how the traditional idea of hell falls apart as soon as one accepts the idea of a just god; becusde if a just god sentenced people to eternal hell just for unbelief, then that god would lose his character and become a fiend. So the tradtional hell can't exist if you believe in a just god (I don't believe in any god, just or otherwise, personally).

Wicks goes on to name some of the folk who must have been sentenced to hell according to the tradtional description: everyone from Plato and Socrates to Henry W. Longfellow and Sarah Flower Adams (author of "Nearer My God to Thee", but a Unitarian).

Wicks says, "This fear of hell has been the lash used for driving men into the acceptance of certain dogmas. Every craven, every sneak, every slave responds. But every good man, every one of moral fiber, every free man scorns the bargain."

because no good man could stand to know of the sufferings of others in hell:

"Any man who would purchse salvation that meant eternal bliss to himself and eternal perdition to his neighbor, is so lost in selfishness that it would take considerable fire to purify his nature!"

The upshot of this is, no hell as traditionally described could exist in the presence of a just god.
 
Hokulele said:
I never really understood why the whole punishment bit, temporary or permanent, was necessary. If a person (soul, whatever) is/was good, send them on to some reward. If he/she/it was really that bad, just make them cease to exist. Punishment seems unecessarily cruel and vindictive to me, even on a short term basis. If you do not plan to keep them there and eventually mean to send them on to paradise anyway, what is the point of the torture? Just whack 'em on the nose with a newspaper, yell "Bad!", and carry on. Hint to god, this works best as a training tool if you do this as soon as you catch them in the act of breaking the rules, not decades later.

But then again, I admit that there is quite a bit regarding Christianity I never really understood.
Click to expand...

This has been explained by others better than i can ever explain. Try reading C.S. Lewis's "The Problem of Pain". It covers a similar topic of pain/punishment. There are other books and references, but i seemed to have forgotten them :o. I will try my best to find them.


[X] said:
There is also a text (didn't get included in the New Testamen Canon, for reasons which will become clear) that says that people will be tortured in Hell, but if one person asks God to pity the damned, everyone it freed from the bonds of damnation.

Can't remeber the text I'm referring to.
Click to expand...

Sounds interesting, I will certainly look into it.

Pardalis said:
Why not take out the "punishment" bit altogether then? Why not just go straight to death, like all the evidence points to anyway?

Hell is just a sado-masochistic way to manipulate people into fear. Now they want to tell peopl: "When you die, you'll get punished for all you sins, and then you'll die for real!" Get real. Just adding another elvel of stupidity to the whole thing. There's still zero evidence for it.
Click to expand...


What is the evidence of the cease of existence after death? :confused:

theprestige said:
No, seriously, what's the point of this thread? Is anybody here going to engage in a learned theological debate with the guy on the other end of your link? Is anybody here seriously going to express thoughts any different from the thoughts they've expressed thousands of times before?

It's not like this is the 9/11 Conspiracy theory forums, which are frequented by active subject-matter experts (structural engineers, ATCs, etc.) and talented lay researchers (e.g., Gravy).

Why ask these people, in this forum, for "thoughts" on this subject? Why not go to a theology forum, or a Textual Criticism forum, where actual subject-matter experts representing hundreds if not thousands of years of study among them could give you a detailed analysis of these and many other conundrums?
Click to expand...

Jref is not the only place where I have searched for the answers/thoughts. I just thought that I might give jref a try. :)
 
Tiktaalik said:
The upshot of this is, no hell as traditionally described could exist in the presence of a just god.
Click to expand...

I just have to wonder how can anyone really, truly know, assuming that there even is a god at all that he/she is just?
I've read of many gods and many were murderous, as is the biblical god, and anything but just. So, if there really is some evil and malicious god then hell as we see it could very well exist.

Not that for a single moment that I personally do. : )
 
Last edited:
TinfoilCat said:
This has been explained by others better than i can ever explain. Try reading C.S. Lewis's "The Problem of Pain". It covers a similar topic of pain/punishment. There are other books and references, but i seemed to have forgotten them :o. I will try my best to find them.
Click to expand...


Well, I have read Lewis' treatment, and IIRC, it dealt with pain and suffering in this world, not after death. I can understand why even a just god would have some mechanism for learning, but the pain as punishment rather than as corrective treatment seems unecessarily vindictive, as I mentioned in my post.

Regardless, did you get a chance to read the thread I linked regarding the whole concept of hell and how it varied throughout the bible?
 
GT/CS said:
Please elaborate on this question. For example, it may be helpful for you to provide evidence that existance does not cease after death.

Thank you
Click to expand...

I never stated there was any scientific evidence of the afterlife. Pardalis stated that there was evidence which concluded that there is no afterlife. I was just expressing my curiosity by trying to find the evidence he has stated.
 
Hokulele said:
Well, I have read Lewis' treatment, and IIRC, it dealt with pain and suffering in this world, not after death. I can understand why even a just god would have some mechanism for learning, but the pain as punishment rather than as corrective treatment seems unecessarily vindictive, as I mentioned in my post.

Regardless, did you get a chance to read the thread I linked regarding the whole concept of hell and how it varied throughout the bible?
Click to expand...

Yes i got a chance to read the other thread. I'm currently doing research on places such as "paradise", "limbo", "tautarus", "purgatory, etc. This is extremely fascinating. I will try to get back to you, Hokulele, on the purpose of hell/why it was created. I remember some interesting articles/things i read which explain it quite clearly. This all was a while back so it might take some time to find these references. :)
 
Last edited:
TinfoilCat said:
Many traditional Christians view Hell as an eternal punnishment for those who are wicked and fall short of Heaven. There is a view where Hell is only temporary, a punishment before eternal death. To cease to exist after punishment. Your thoughts?

Link: http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/index.php?option=com_custom_content&task=view&id=4620
Click to expand...


My own variety of the church believes that hell is a spiritual separation from god rather than some bad place you go when you die, and that since Jesus went "there", and time doesn't exist to him the way it does for us, that even people in hell can choose to be saved, and that those who remain choose to be in that situation.

I'm not sure where the incentive to be good comes in for that scenario but it does at least temper their evangelism to make them more tolerable.
 
"...purpose of hell/why it was created."
.
It's the stick part of the carrot (eternal life) and eternal damnation... the stick.
Scares people.
Gets them docile and submissive and generous donators to the religion.
It is of course totally at odds with the hypothesis of an all-just creator.
After all, most of the people who have lived and will live will be completely ignorant of this guy.
Which leads to philosophical "reasonings" that are nothing more than journeys along a Moebius strip.
 
Robert Silverberg had a good sci-fi series on Hell.
"Gilgamesh in Hell", and "Gilgamesh in the Outback".
His cast of characters was limitless... :)
All the worthwhile figures of history being there of course Gilgamesh got to interact with many of them while searching for his long-lost comrade Enkidu.
 
TinfoilCat said:
Many traditional Christians view Hell as an eternal punnishment for those who are wicked and fall short of Heaven. There is a view where Hell is only temporary, a punishment before eternal death. To cease to exist after punishment. Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

If the punishment is of a limited time period, and then the punishee ceases to exist, and therefore retains no memory of the punishment, or of anything for that matter, how is this a punishment?

Or is this just supposed to be the punisher getting off on His jollies?

Norm
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom