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"Guns for Tots"

shanek

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
15,990
It's only as silly as the law they're protesting.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_020503_gunsftots.html

In a plan that is already outraging local parents, a political group plans to hand out hundreds of toy guns to school children in Harlem Thursday. The Manhattan Libertarian Party is calling their program "Guns For Tots," and they say they're doing it to protest a bill before the City Council that would ban the sale of most toy guns in New York City.

Sure. Ban toy guns. That'll cut down on the killings. :rolleyes:

(Of course, that would probably make sense to those across the pond who made this same argument in the British gun threads...)

But the stupid thing is, the reason for the silly law is because apparently police can't tell the difference between a toy gun and a real gun, and shoot kids. Instead of training and punishing the police, their solution is to ban toy guns. Sheesh.
 
shanek said:

But the stupid thing is, the reason for the silly law is because apparently police can't tell the difference between a toy gun and a real gun, and shoot kids. Instead of training and punishing the police, their solution is to ban toy guns. Sheesh.

And of course they also just can't restrict only the sale of toy guns which could reasonably be mistaken for a real gun. Funny, back when I was a kid every gun I could find didn't look anything like the real thing. They were all rediculously colored, styled, and even the similar looking ones had big orange/pink things stuck on the end of the gun.

But of course to bureaucrats, there is no such thing as a subtle distinction or a fuzzy boundary. No, all boundaries must be absolutely and arbitrarily drawn and enforced, and if there is a subtle difference in two things then they are in fact the same thing.

Thus toy guns that look nothing like real guns and could never be reasonably mistaken for a real gun are the same as toy replicas that look exactly like real guns.

:rolleyes:
 
Can you even get a realistic toy gun anymore?? Their all florecent now!!!

When I was a kid I had a Trasnformer toy called Megatron. He transformed in a realistic looking handgun. Complete with scope and silencer. You cant find toys like that anyore.
 
Yes. I guess its easier to ban toy guns rather than hire/train better police.
 
Well, it seems that stupidity reigns supreme.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_020603_gunsftots_folo.html

If the goal of the Manhattan Libertarian Party was to get people talking about toy guns and about the proposed law to ban them they were certainly successful. But if their goal was to get residents in one Harlem neighborhood to accept and understand their point of view, they were not quite as successful.

Harlem Resident: "Get out my neighborhood. You only come up here when you want something from me. Go away! Go away! Go away! Go away!"

Wanting something from you??? What exactly were they wanting from you, Mr. or Mrs. Harlem Resident? They were GIVING STUFF AWAY!!!! :mad:

The giveaway, which the party called "Guns for Tots," coincided with a City Council hearing on a proposed law that would effectively ban the sale of toy guns in New York City. Lawmakers showed off fake weapons that had been spray painted to look real, and expressed outrage at the Libertarians, calling their giveaway flat out racist.

City Councilman Charles Barron, Brooklyn (D): "Knowing that these toy guns led to the deaths of some of our children, you must find other ways to promote your party."

Since when is standing up for our Constitutional rights racist? It's not the toy guns that lead to the deaths; it's the kids who spray-painted them black and used them to commit crimes! Stupid liberal....
 
Shanek, I understand you're a bit staunch in your views, but just take a step back here, ok?

You can't train police to have x-ray vision. There is no training in the world that will help a cop distinguish between a real and a toy gun in the middle of the night. Remember Laser Tag when it was popular with the kids? I recall some cop shooting a kid who was holding that and running around at night.

Now, I'm not saying that banning toy guns is the answer. Hell, that Laser Tag gun looks different enough from a real gun that it probably wouldn't have been affected by any such ban. The cops, however, are still the same. They are responsible for split-second decisions, and you simply cannot train them on how to detect plastic from metal at a distance in the dark.

You really have only one of two options. You mourn the loss of the child and absolve the cops for an understandable, but tragic, mistake. ◊◊◊◊ happens. Or, you condemn the child for proving Darwin correct for running around in the dark waving a toy gun and ignoring police demands to drop it. Personally, I would be reacting in the manner of the latter form.

Shanek, you also can't seem to understand that what the white Libertarians want from the black Harlem residents is face time on the tube. Of course they want something from them, it's called exposure. To claim that they want nothing because they're giving away toy guns is asinine. They get media attention and exposure in the political limelight.

To also claim that it wasn't racially motivated is incredibly short sighted of you. They weren't in any of the affluent white neighborhoods handing out toy guns, were they? No, they were in Harlem handing out toy guns to black kids. Not white kids, not Jewish kids, not Arabic kids. Black. It was a targeted stunt to gain the most and best media exposure, and the media loves racial tension.

As far as using the children, well yeah. They both were. I think a valid argument would be that there were no politicians walking around with video cameras showing white hands taking toys guns away from children. There weren't any televised stunts of white politicians handing out board games to black kids. But, you've got myopic white guys walking around doling out toy guns to black kids with television camera crews in tow. Apples and oranges. They're both fruit, but decidedly different.
 
Re: Re: "Guns for Tots"

Plutarck said:


And of course they also just can't restrict only the sale of toy guns which could reasonably be mistaken for a real gun. Funny, back when I was a kid every gun I could find didn't look anything like the real thing. They were all rediculously colored, styled, and even the similar looking ones had big orange/pink things stuck on the end of the gun.

You must be a lot younger than me. Those orange things on the ends of toy guns were added only in the last 15 years or so. Precisely so they wouldn't be mistaken for a real gun.

I don't know how much difference that would make in the dark.

When I was a kid, our toy guns looked very real. We wanted them to look as real as possible. Sure, you had your "ray guns" for when you were playing space man. But when you were playing cowboys and indians, you wanted the same rifle as Chuck Conners, and the same pistol as the Lone Ranger. For cops and robbers, you wanted a genuine looking revolver. And when playing army, you wanted a real looking toy machine gun or rifle to kill the japs or germans with.

And they looked pretty good.

The cap guns kind of sucked. The caps were on a roll-strip of paper and fired only half the time. After a while, you just didn't bother.

My widowed grandmother used to keep a toy cap gun in her kitchen to scare off burglar-rapists. She was sure (hoping?) one was gonna drop in sooner or later.

I have to agree with most of what Hazelip said. I think the Libertarians took the wrong approach, although I agree with the idea that taking away toy guns is about as stupid as it gets.

Outlaw toy guns and only deliquents will have toy guns. :D
 
Hazelip said:
You can't train police to have x-ray vision. There is no training in the world that will help a cop distinguish between a real and a toy gun in the middle of the night. Remember Laser Tag when it was popular with the kids? I recall some cop shooting a kid who was holding that and running around at night.

We aren't talking about laser tag here. We're talking about people committing crimes with toy guns painted to look like real guns. These people deserved what they got, and the actions of the police were proper.

Now, I'm not saying that banning toy guns is the answer. Hell, that Laser Tag gun looks different enough from a real gun that it probably wouldn't have been affected by any such ban.

No, the ban affects all toy guns, no matter how brightly-colored they are or how much unlike real guns they look.

The cops, however, are still the same. They are responsible for split-second decisions, and you simply cannot train them on how to detect plastic from metal at a distance in the dark.

But surely they can tell the difference between a Glock .40 and a day-glow green Super Squirter?

You mourn the loss of the child and absolve the cops for an understandable, but tragic, mistake.

Except that I don't think it's a mistake at all. The kids in question modified their toys specifically for the purpose of convincing others they were real guns, and committing crimes with them.

Shanek, you also can't seem to understand that what the white Libertarians want from the black Harlem residents is face time on the tube.

Uh, the leader of the protest, Jim Lesczynski, is a resident of Harlem. And I haven't seen any indication that they were targeting black kids. They were giving them out to any kids that came along. Should Leszynski have gone somewhere other than his home town to protest just because he's white?

Of course they want something from them, it's called exposure. To claim that they want nothing because they're giving away toy guns is asinine. They get media attention and exposure in the political limelight.

Do you really thinkt hat was a factor at all? They wanted to call attention to a bad piece of legislation that's about to be passed. If they merely wanted exposure, they would have gone about it in a totally different way.

To also claim that it wasn't racially motivated is incredibly short sighted of you. They weren't in any of the affluent white neighborhoods handing out toy guns, were they? No, they were in Harlem handing out toy guns to black kids. Not white kids, not Jewish kids, not Arabic kids. Black.

Show me anything which says they targeted black kids. And no, it's not just because they were in Harlem. White and hispanic kids live in Harlem, too. Isn't it racist to assume that handing them out in this area is a racist act?
 
Re: Re: Re: "Guns for Tots"

LukeT said:
I have to agree with most of what Hazelip said. I think the Libertarians took the wrong approach, although I agree with the idea that taking away toy guns is about as stupid as it gets.

I agree that this wasn't the smartest or most effective way of protesting it. But like I said above, it wasn't any sillier than the law itself.
 
shanek said:


We aren't talking about laser tag here. We're talking about people committing crimes with toy guns painted to look like real guns. These people deserved what they got, and the actions of the police were proper.

But surely they can tell the difference between a Glock .40 and a day-glow green Super Squirter?


Which is it? Painted to look like the real thing, or day glow colors? Day time or night time shootings? You can't have this both ways.
 
Hazelip said:
Which is it? Painted to look like the real thing, or day glow colors?

The guns involved in the shootings in questions were painted to look like the real thing. The ones they want to ban are day glow colors.

And I never specified any difference as to whether or not the shootings took place at day or night. The criminals took actions to convince others that the guns were real. Therefore, the officers acted accordingly. But working to ban toy guns as a result is complete lunacy.
 
So, you completely deny that accidental night shootings of children carrying toy guns ever happened? You really think this law is the result of a single incident involving criminal activity?
 
Hey, kid! You gotta permit for that Super Soaker?

...

I'm sorry, son. I couldn't get you a cap gun as they are outlawed now. So I got you this 1250 fps Crossman air pellet gun with 5000 rounds and ten CO2 cartridges! Yeeeeehaaawwww!

...

You need to have a talk with the Beaver, Ward. Every time I buy a new broom or mop, he breaks off the handle and turns it into a toy gun.

...

Now look here, Johnny. You WILL play with this Barbie doll, and you WILL like it! You hear me!?

...
 
Hazelip said:
So, you completely deny that accidental night shootings of children carrying toy guns ever happened?

There is a flaw in your reasoning. What kind of cop would shoot a child, whether or not he had a gun?

This toy gun ban is just another admission that police recruiting and training fails to some extent.
 
corplinx said:
This toy gun ban is just another admission that police recruiting and training fails to some extent.

I think that the failure of training and recruiting for police officers is something that few people deny. You have to look at the monetary compensation for the work that they do, however. We can't whine about better training and personel until there is the budget to support that. Banning toy guns is not really the answer, but it sure is a cheap alternative.
 
Hazelip said:
So, you completely deny that accidental night shootings of children carrying toy guns ever happened?

Why don't you read what I wrote? The shootings in question occured when some kids modified their guns to look real and used them to commit a crime! Sheesh...
 
Hazelip said:
So, you completely deny that accidental night shootings of children carrying toy guns ever happened? You really think this law is the result of a single incident involving criminal activity?

Originally posted by Lucid One
I think that the failure of training and recruiting for police officers is something that few people deny. You have to look at the monetary compensation for the work that they do, however. We can't whine about better training and personel until there is the budget to support that. Banning toy guns is not really the answer, but it sure is a cheap alternative.


People get shot in hunting accidents all the time. People die in automobile accidents all the time. Shall we abolish beer, guns and cars?
 
Cars are used in a lot of crimes. Ban them.

We should ban sticks and twigs, too, because kids frequently play with them as pretend guns.
 

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