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Gun Makers Sued Over Las Vegas shooting

Ranb

Penultimate Amazing
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http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...las-vegas-mass-shooting/ar-AADOnae?ocid=ientp

The complaint, filed in state court in Nevada Tuesday, alleges that the makers of the 12 different semiautomatic rifles used in the mass shooting knew they could be easily modified to fire like fully automatic machine guns.
Actually not true. The ATF has repeatedly defined bump fire as semi-auto and distinct from full auto. Even though bump stocks are now defined as machine guns, bump firing is not like a machine gun except for rate of fire.

The manufacturing and sale of new fully automatic weapons is prohibited under federal law.
Also not true.

Ms. Mesner-Hage and other attorneys for the parents of Carrie Parsons, who was killed at the age of 31, said they hope to advance the case under an exception to the federal immunity law that says manufacturers may be liable for injuries resulting from violations of state laws dealing with the marketing and sale of their products.
I wonder what state laws concerning the marketing of these guns were violated?

Ranb
 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...las-vegas-mass-shooting/ar-AADOnae?ocid=ientp

Actually not true. The ATF has repeatedly defined bump fire as semi-auto and distinct from full auto. Even though bump stocks are now defined as machine guns, bump firing is not like a machine gun except for rate of fire.

Surely, this is mere semantics? What really matters is not what the legal definition is, but what the result is.

- A shooter firing a machine gun can fire at a rate much higher than they could with a semi-automatic.

- A shooter firing a semi automatic fitted with a bump stock can fire at a rate much higher than they could without one.

The people who are at the other end with high velocity bullets tearing onto their flesh and killing their friends and the people around them - they don't really care about the legal niceties of firearms definitions.
 
- A shooter firing a semi automatic fitted with a bump stock can fire at a rate much higher than they could without one.
Bump firing without a bump stock is just as fast as with a bump stock. Didn't we discuss this before?

If they want to fight in the court of public opinion, then semantics would matter. But they are in a court of law instead. They can't just say it was "like a machine gun so it should be illegal" when actual machine guns are legally bought and sold in the USA, even a few new ones.
 
Bump firing without a bump stock is just as fast as with a bump stock. Didn't we discuss this before?

Yes, we disagreed, and I continue to disagree.

Perhaps you can fire that fast, most people will not be able to match this...

https://youtu.be/K2IOZ-5Nk5k?t=264

... with a single trigger pull per shot and without a bump-stock. I'm a regular shooter, I've tried and I can't get near it and maintain any kind of accuracy.
 
... with a single trigger pull per shot and without a bump-stock. I'm a regular shooter, I've tried and I can't get near it and maintain any kind of accuracy.



Surely that's the key difference between traditional bump firing, and using a bump stock? As I understand it, in the traditional way of bump firing, the stock must be pulled forward off the shoulder to pull the trigger, which obviously has an impact on control of the firearm, and as such on the accuracy.

A bump stock would not appear to have that problem. It might not be as accurate as a proper automatic weapon, but it's reasonable to assume it would be more accurate than traditional bump firing.

If I were them, that's the argument I would use while suing the bump stock manufacturers, rather than the firearm manufacturers.
 
Essentially, the plaintiffs' argument is that the manufacturers knew the guns had recoil which made bump stocks possible, and did nothing about it.

Maybe they should be suing Isaac Newton.
 
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Actual text of lawsuit available at bottom of this article: https://portermedium.com/2019/07/la...as-vegas-massacre-that-killed-58-injured-500/

The plaintiff's actual argument cites powerful recoil and removable stock.
The first three pages read like a poorly written novel.
Paragraph 59 consists of stupid hyperbole.
Paragraph 60 is not true.
Paragraphs 90, 91 and 92 neglect to mention that the ATF initially said the Akins Accelerator was a semi-auto rifle.
The document goes on in the next several paragraphs to cite industry hyperbole as credible.
Paragraphs 151 to 162 keep repeating the claim that the bump firing was automatic when it was actually semi-auto.
Paragraph 172 and 173 misquotes the law regarding NFA firearms.
Paragraph 176 is not true.
Paragraph 197 again identified the rifles used as machine guns.
Paragraph 198 claims a violation of state and federal law that the ATF specifically said was not true.
Paragraph 201 seeks to shift the burden of proof to the defendant.

I'm no lawyer, but I think their case as set out in the link sucks.
 
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Yes, we disagreed, and I continue to disagree.

Perhaps you can fire that fast, most people will not be able to match this...



... with a single trigger pull per shot and without a bump-stock. I'm a regular shooter, I've tried and I can't get near it and maintain any kind of accuracy.



It's not difficult. As for accuracy, the Vegas shooter wasn't concerned with that. All he had to was throw enough lead into a crowd. Could've been much worse if he took proper aim.
 
Can you cite the plaintiffs' argument?

Actual text of lawsuit available at bottom of this article: https://portermedium.com/2019/07/la...as-vegas-massacre-that-killed-58-injured-500/

The plaintiff's actual argument cites powerful recoil and removable stock.

Yeah, the gist of it is paragraph 92: "Despite the fact that bump stocks... unequivocally converted AR-15s into fully automatic machine guns, the Defendant Manufacturers did nothing to change the design features of the weapon that rendered it susceptible to simple modification."

And what were those design features that the manufacturers refused to change? As you cited: "powerful" recoil and removable stocks.

At what stage of manufacture is the powerful recoil added? If I were buying any kind of firearm, I'd definitely want them to omit the recoil, even though it would ruin my chances of bump-firing or bump stock modification. Of course, some would complain that my recoil-free weapon was far deadlier than normal due to its much greater ease of accurate repeat fire, and should therefore be made illegal. But it wouldn't come to that, because it's physically impossible.* That's why I'm suggesting they should have sued Isaac Newton.

As for removable stocks, guns are manufactured out of assembled parts, and stocks are made of different materials than the lock, for good reasons. Should the manufacturer have bonded the stocks in place with Gorilla Glue to make sure no one can remove and replace them? (It wouldn't be strong enough anyhow.) Or used one-way screws? (Which can easily be drilled out.) If they found a way, it would make them impossible to repair. All to prevent a user modification that was legal. And which wouldn't have prevented people from designing bump stock modifications that clamped onto the stock instead of replacing it.

I'm not judging our firearms laws here. I'm judging the merits of this lawsuit under those laws. Given that gun manufacturers have been given legal immunity from liability for the fact that their products fire bullets, this suit attempts to hold them accountable for negligently failing to magic away their rifles' recoils and for negligently making guns out of parts that can be disassembled. It's nonsense.


*Yes, there are such things as recoilless rifles. No, that technology can't be used for small arms. Or it if were, it would make it even easier to convert the weapon to highly accurate repeat fire using only simple external parts.
 


It's not difficult. As for accuracy, the Vegas shooter wasn't concerned with that. All he had to was throw enough lead into a crowd. Could've been much worse if he took proper aim.

Thanks for posting the video. It perfectly illustrates what I have been saying; that using a bump stock makes it much easier to deliver a high rate of fire than without one

When the shooter in this video is bump firing without a bump stock, he can't keep it up. He has eight attempts to get it started, firing bursts of 3, 1, 4, 7, 1, 1, 7 and 6 shots respectively; total 30 shots over a period of 13 seconds - average rate of fire 138 rpm. However, with a bump stock, he gets it right first time, firing 23 shots in 2½ seconds - average rate of fire 558 rpm.

For reference, last week, I had the opportunity to fire a semi-automatic weapon; an ex-RNZAF Steyr AUG. I was able to empty a 25 round magazine in under 9 seconds - average rate of fire 187 rpm - why would I bother trying to bump fire it?
 
When the shooter in this video is bump firing without a bump stock, he can't keep it up. He has eight attempts to get it started, firing bursts of 3, 1, 4, 7, 1, 1, 7 and 6 shots respectively; total 30 shots over a period of 13 seconds - average rate of fire 138 rpm. However, with a bump stock, he gets it right first time, firing 23 shots in 2½ seconds - average rate of fire 558 rpm.

Neither of those rifles have bump stocks.
 
Do you really need this stupid question answered?


Why no, it's what's sometimes called a rhetorical question.

Do you understand the point that gun manufacturers are literally being sued for failing to remove the recoil from their rifles?
 
Why no, it's what's sometimes called a rhetorical question.

Do you understand the point that gun manufacturers are literally being sued for failing to remove the recoil from their rifles?

No, it would be a bit stupid to understand it that way. It's even a stupid way for you to phrase the question and implies that maybe you should be asking that question you thought was rhetorical.

The lawsuit is complaining about the power of the recoil, not it's mere presence. And that is a design parameter. And they could have designed it with more or less recoil (and if you look up the history of the weapon you could actually know what they did about this point).

Conservation of momentum is demanded by Newton's third law, not gun recoil.

And your earlier stupid assertion about Gorilla Glue as if it were the only alternative to how they could mount the stock make it's look like you're really desperate to keep mass murdering weapons around.
 
Why no, it's what's sometimes called a rhetorical question.

Do you understand the point that gun manufacturers are literally being sued for failing to remove the recoil from their rifles?

A co-worker's wife was sued by a scam lawyer and scam plaintiffs who pulled out in front of her deliberately on a busy road, and she rear-ended them. They claimed she was responsible "because she could have swerved into oncoming traffic and creamed herself instead of rear-ending" them.

So, yes, I can believe it.
 
Surely, this is mere semantics? What really matters is not what the legal definition is, but what the result is.

- A shooter firing a machine gun can fire at a rate much higher than they could with a semi-automatic.

- A shooter firing a semi automatic fitted with a bump stock can fire at a rate much higher than they could without one.

If we are calling the bump stock ROF "much higher" then we need a new superlative to describe machine gun ROF.
 

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