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Gun control doesn't reduce crime (report)

Ranb

Penultimate Amazing
Ranb
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http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42167

It seems that the National Academy of Sciences says gun control has little effect on crime in the USA.

The report and a few details are available here, http://www.nationalacademies.org/topnews/

A few points I thought were especially interesting were,

"The report noted that many schools have programs intended to prevent gun violence. However, it added, some studies suggest that children's curiosity and teenagers' attraction to risk make them resistant to the programs or that the projects actually increase the appeal of guns."

And

It found that nearly 80 percent of those (Federal inmates) interviewed got their guns from friends or family members, or on the street through illegal purchases.

Less than 9 percent were bought at retail outlets and only seven-tenths of 1 percent came from gun shows.

The Justice Department's interviews also showed so-called "assault weapons" are not a major cause of gun violence.


Parental guidance (or lack of) seems to be the biggest factor in whether kids are raised to use firearms responsibly, dangerously, or not at all. It also seems that the "evil" gun show is not the criminal arms bazaar that some people claim.

Ranb
 
Here's the wording from the second link you posted.
Data on Firearms and Violence Too Weak to Settle Policy Debates
The University of Maryland's Charles F. Wellford discusses his committee's report at a news conference on Thursday, Dec. 16, 2004, at the National Academy of Sciences building in Washington, D.C.
Dec. 16 -- Current research and data on firearms, violent crime, and suicide are too weak to support strong conclusions about the effects of various violence-prevention, deterrence and control measures, says a new report from the National Academies' National Research Council. A comprehensive research program on firearms is needed as a basis for criminal-justice and public health policy.
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Seems it depends on how you say stuff, doesn't it.
 
Zep said:
......Seems it depends on how you say stuff, doesn't it.
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Sure it does. If currant research and data are too weak to support strong conclusions then there is no strong evidence that gun control works at all. This certainly is good ammo for those who think gun possession should not be a crime.

Ranb
 
The CDC report is here http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

The fact is that the equivication is less data based, IMO, than the fact that the results did not come out the way that they liked. The CDC appears to have the progesssive opinion that guns are bad and has funded research to prove that. In light of that their pussyfooting is not terribly surprising.

Earlier this year, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention published a mind-boggling report showing that the U.S. firearm-related homicide rate for children was 16 times higher than the combined rate for children in 25 other industrialized countries. Meanwhile, the U.S. child rate of firearm related suicide was 11 times higher. The report was one of a number of recent CDC funded studies that have fueled a growing perception in the medical community that gun violence has reached epidemic proportions.


But not everyone buys it. "They are politicians and liars masquerading in lab coats," says Dr. Edgar Suter, a San Francisco Bay Area family practice physician who chairs a 500-member non-profit group called Doctors for Integrity and Policy Research. Dr. Suter argues that CDC researchers blatantly support anti-gun activities and ignore the benefits of gun ownership, resulting in "dishonest factoids that advance their preordained biases," he says. Along with the National Rifle Association, Dr. Suter's group has campaigned to get Congress to cut CDC's funding for gun violence research.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/injuries.html
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Point is that the CDC is not a neutral body when it comes to this issue.
 
Ranb said:
Sure it does. If currant (sic) research and data are too weak to support strong conclusions then there is no strong evidence that gun control works at all. This certainly is good ammo for those who think gun possession should not be a crime.

Ranb
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Erm, no, you can't say that at all. You can draw no conclusions either way. You could be right, but there's no evidence from this source to support your conclusion either.

Incidentally, "gun control" does NOT imply "no gun possession". Sheesh, how many times do we have to go over this rancid old furphy.
 
Ed said:
The CDC report is here http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

The fact is that the equivication is less data based, IMO, than the fact that the results did not come out the way that they liked. The CDC appears to have the progesssive opinion that guns are bad and has funded research to prove that. In light of that their pussyfooting is not terribly surprising.

Point is that the CDC is not a neutral body when it comes to this issue.
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This is a hot-button issue only in the USA, and it has always confused me. Here, it's less important than, say, discussing fruit-fly control. It's almost a non-issue. Here we have gun controls, but you can buy guns, gun owners exist in many forms, they use them all the time, crims get and use guns, etc, yet our firearm-related deaths are still a fraction of yours per head of population. All I can conclude is that we just don't seem to be as interested in shooting each other.

To be fair, other statistics like illicit drug use, common crime, youth suicide, vehicle accident rates, etc, are as bad as the rest of the western world - we definitely have our societal problems too. It's not like we live in Never Never Land.
 
Zep said:
This is a hot-button issue only in the USA, and it has always confused me. Here, it's less important than, say, discussing fruit-fly control. It's almost a non-issue. Here we have gun controls, but you can buy guns, gun owners exist in many forms, they use them all the time, crims get and use guns, etc, yet our firearm-related deaths are still a fraction of yours per head of population. All I can conclude is that we just don't seem to be as interested in shooting each other.

To be fair, other statistics like illicit drug use, common crime, youth suicide, vehicle accident rates, etc, are as bad as the rest of the western world - we definitely have our societal problems too. It's not like we live in Never Never Land.
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One day I would like to have a rational discussion about this topic sans snide and irrelivant observations about how things are really for the best in this best of all possible countrys (fill in name of your country here).

Unfortunately, whenever this topic comes up outsiders slip into their moral superiority suit and conversation goes downhill. We, to be fair, wave around our bill of rights and point out that the rest of the world lives on the edge of totalitarianism, if they are not there already. We point out how we saved the entire world from Hitler and bankrupted the commies. On the way we are called religious nuts and sexually repressed.

And so it goes. I have been having these discussions for 35 years or so and I have yet to hear anything new on this board except for some highly creative vituperation. It has mostly been stupid though.

The problem with ferriners is that they simply do not understand American culture and, I fear, are far to snobbish to admit there is one let alone learn about it. We, on the other hand, cannot apprehend a culture without firearms as a background to life.

Anytime someone wants to actually discuss, let me know.
 
I think you're on it, Zep. The reality is that while many other nations have guns, the real danger here in the U.S. is that we lack the self control for what we have. In Germany, when I was stationed there as part of the U.S. Army, I could have purchased guns out on the local economy, as many Germans themselves did. But, it's a rarity to hear of Germans blasting one another's brains out in Nuernburg, as you would in downtown L.A.

Part of the problem is something my wife encountered, (cliched, I know, but many cliches are based on truth): When a kid would throw a punch at her when she worked with emotionally disturbed kids, she would inform the parents, and would be met with the usual, "Not MY little darling." It made it hard as hell for her to maintain discipline as a teacher's aide.

Further, it was next to impossible to get a meeting with parents, mainly because kids were not only not a priority, they normally didn't even register at all with their parents. They were an interference in their day to day lives.

End result: Lots of kids who have no one who really gives a damn about 'em. They find people who are willing to spend time with them, and in far too many cases, it's other kids, it's the pedophiles, and it's the neo-Nazi types.

Spooky. Any wonder on anyone's part on why I'm looking to move out?
 
Ed said:
We, on the other hand, cannot apprehend a culture without firearms as a background to life.
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Quite a lot of you can apparently.

You saved the entire world from Hitler?
 
Zep said:
Erm, no, you can't say that at all. You can draw no conclusions either way. You could be right, but there's no evidence from this source to support your conclusion either.

Incidentally, "gun control" does NOT imply "no gun possession". Sheesh, how many times do we have to go over this rancid old furphy.
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You are trying to read between the lines when all you need to do is read what I am typing.

The NAS says current research is too weak to support strong conclusions. I said there is no strong evidence that gun control works. Do you have any strong evidence that gun control laws (other than NFA) do work in the USA? I did not say gun control laws fail to work at all. I also did not imply gun control equals an outright ban. I only said this report is good for those people who are against an outright ban on gun possession.

Ranb
 
Ed said:
One day I would like to have a rational discussion about this topic sans snide and irrelivant observations about how things are really for the best in this best of all possible countrys (fill in name of your country here).

Unfortunately, whenever this topic comes up outsiders slip into their moral superiority suit and conversation goes downhill. We, to be fair, wave around our bill of rights and point out that the rest of the world lives on the edge of totalitarianism, if they are not there already. We point out how we saved the entire world from Hitler and bankrupted the commies. On the way we are called religious nuts and sexually repressed.

And so it goes. I have been having these discussions for 35 years or so and I have yet to hear anything new on this board except for some highly creative vituperation. It has mostly been stupid though.

The problem with ferriners is that they simply do not understand American culture and, I fear, are far to snobbish to admit there is one let alone learn about it. We, on the other hand, cannot apprehend a culture without firearms as a background to life.

Anytime someone wants to actually discuss, let me know.
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Gee, you sure are prickly today, Ed.

I'm certainly not trying to be snide or irrelevant. Nor do I believe that every USAian is a gun-totin' bible-thumpin' sexually-repressed pickup-drivin' thickwit hillbilly waving a copy of the constitution like an access-all-areas pass. (Incidentally, your constitution is a fine document - I'm one of those who believe we are in need of something similar here to replace our tired old contract with a tiny country on the other side of the world.)

Nor are we ignorant of the length and depth of American culture, politics and history, both historical and contemporary. It's important enough that we need to become acquainted with US history in school here, but do you learn Australian history there? Or the history of anywhere else? Your culture has already invaded here anyway - this is a Dell PC I'm using, we drink Coke, eat at Mcdonalds, drive Fords, etc. (And, personally, I find that American art is an undiscovered cornucopia, but that's another subject.)

Having spent more than one or two days in the USA myself, I happen to know first hand that the similarities our own two countries share far outnumber the differences, and the same goes for many other countries in the world. Why do you think that is? Could it be we are not really as different, basically, as you might like us to be?

So there's no "moral superiority" involved here at all, just puzzlement over a confusing situation, as I outlined above. So why don't you cast aside your perceived feelings of chastisement and have another look at the issue...from an outsider's eyes this time.
 
The NAS says current research is too weak to support strong conclusions.

'Current' research?

Yeah, I'll eagerly look forward to the methods they come up with for getting more complete information from dead people and violent criminals.
:rolleyes:
 
Ed said:
The problem with ferriners is that they simply do not understand American culture and, I fear, are far to snobbish to admit there is one let alone learn about it.
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What will it take before someone understands American culture? I've lived in the US, do you think that I understand American culture?

Ed said:
We, on the other hand, cannot apprehend a culture without firearms as a background to life.
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What does that say about Americans?
 
That we value our rights.

Claus, what do you have to say about where most criminals get their guns?
 
Crims-R-Us. There's a whole aisle for concealed handguns alone...
 
Ed said:
We, on the other hand, cannot apprehend a culture without firearms as a background to life.
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I am not sure you should make any "we" statements about the US. I really see no point in owning a gun, and I know a lot of people who also feel that way. I know it is easy to generalize, but US culture is not homogenous, so no one should make blanket statements.
Just for the record, if you have no criminal record, I see no reason why you should not be able to own a gun if you want, however you should take great responsibility for its proper use.
 
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