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Gov. Christie does the right thing (sort of)

Puppycow

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After doing the wrong thing a year ago, he's decided that maybe Big Brother shouldn't be interfering in the market for automobiles as it always has in the past.

It's a step forward, but why should it only apply to one company? Why shouldn't all car makers be allowed to sell cars directly to consumers or by whatever manner of distribution makes the most sense to them?

Gov. Christie signs bill to allow direct sales by Tesla in New Jersey

March 18 at 6:50 PM
autos
Christie signs bill to let Tesla sell direct in New Jersey

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (R) has signed a bill that will let Tesla sell its electric cars directly to consumers — handing Elon Musk’s company a major victory over traditional dealerships that opposed the move.

The battle has been a fraught one between Tesla and dealerships that sell traditional cars on behalf of automakers such as Ford, Chrysler or Toyota. Dealerships, which tend to have immense influence among state and local lawmakers, strongly opposed Tesla selling cars on its own, outside of their showrooms. The Federal Trade Commission has criticized the industry’s strategy as “protectionist.” Musk has had stronger words, comparing the opposition from the dealers to a “mafia version of ‘protection.’”

New Jersey is one of the few states to have reversed itself on this front. Last March, Christie banned the sale of Teslas to New Jersey residents without going through franchise dealerships. But the governor left open the possibility of changing his mind if the state legislature voted to permit direct sales.

“We’re pleased that manufacturers like Tesla will now have the opportunity to establish direct sales operations for consumers in a manner lawfully in New Jersey,” Christie said in a statement Wednesday.

If anyone tells you that businesses are against regulation, laugh in their face and ask about car dealerships. They want lots of regulations to keep out competitors and force you to go through their dealership if you want to buy a new car. A "free market" is the last thing they want.
 
“We’re pleased that manufacturers like Tesla will now have the opportunity to establish direct sales operations for consumers in a manner lawfully in New Jersey,” Christie said in a statement Wednesday.

Right, and he has a bridge he'll sell you in a manner lawfully.

My view is that Elon Musk exudes a public image of such impeccable integrity that politicians like Christie pale in his shadow.
 
After doing the wrong thing a year ago, he's decided that maybe Big Brother shouldn't be interfering in the market for automobiles as it always has in the past.

First, why are you blaming Christie? He said at the time he didn't like the law in question.
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ss...roversial_tesla_ban_on_state_legislature.html

"I have no problem with Tesla selling directly to customers, except that it's against the law in New Jersey," he [Christie] added. "What they were asking for was an exception from the law. I'm not the king. I don't get to grant exceptions to the law."​

It's a step forward, but why should it only apply to one company?

Technically it doesn't. From all the news reports I've seen, it applies to any manufacturer of zero-emissions vehicles.

Why shouldn't all car makers be allowed to sell cars directly to consumers or by whatever manner of distribution makes the most sense to them?

It should. But car dealerships are too powerful to lift the ban completely. Tesla was able to get this change pushed through because zero-emissions vehicles are a small market which poses a pretty limited threat to them. This is essentially a compromise.

If anyone tells you that businesses are against regulation, laugh in their face and ask about car dealerships.

It's called "regulatory capture". I wish more people understood the concept.
 
<snip>

If anyone tells you that businesses are against regulation, laugh in their face and ask about car dealerships. They want lots of regulations to keep out competitors and force you to go through their dealership if you want to buy a new car. A "free market" is the last thing they want.

This is nothing new to anybody who understands libertarian principles.
 
.....Technically it doesn't. From all the news reports I've seen, it applies to any manufacturer of zero-emissions vehicles.....

So, to no-one then. There is no such thing. Well, OK, apart from bicycles.
 
So, to no-one then. There is no such thing. Well, OK, apart from bicycles.

Even bicycles are not zero-emission in this sense (ever tried to pedal one while holding your breath?). But it doesn't matter: the term has a legal definition which Tesla cars (as well as a few others) satisfy, regardless of what you perceive as the accuracy of the description.
 
Given a choice between the credibility of Christie and Musk on this issue, I'm going with Elon Musk.

Christie's town hall claim that he is just enforcing the law, while true, falls short of explaining why he couldn't or wouldn't encourage a change.

From an article last year: March 14, 2014
A new rule that effectively bans direct to consumer car sales was the result of a back room deal between the auto dealers' lobby and Gov. Chris Christie in order to preserve the dealers' monopoly on automobile sales, Tesla Motors' chairman said in a post to the company website today.
...
In his post, Musk said Christie had promised that allowing for direct sales to customers, which is Tesla's sales model, would be put to a vote by the legislature. However, the dealers were afraid of the outcome and so took their concerns to the administration.

"Governor Christie had promised that this would be put to a vote of the elected state legislature, which is the appropriate way to change the law," Musk said. "When it became apparent to the auto dealer lobby that this approach would not succeed, they cut a backroom deal with the Governor to circumvent the legislative process and pass a regulation that is fundamentally contrary to the intent of the law."
 
It's a step forward, but why should it only apply to one company?

It doesn't.

Why shouldn't all car makers be allowed to sell cars directly to consumers or by whatever manner of distribution makes the most sense to them?

As long as they are selling zero-emission cars, they can.

Why this only applies to the sales of zero-emission cars is the next logical question.
 
Given a choice between the credibility of Christie and Musk on this issue, I'm going with Elon Musk.

Except that Christie just proved that his claim about himself was true, whereas Musk's claim about Christie is, well, simply speculation on his part without any real evidence.

I can sympathize with Musk for saying it, the purpose was to apply pressure and in that regards maybe it worked. But there's no reason to think his statements are any more credible than Christie's. You should assume that both of their statements are self-serving.

Christie's town hall claim that he is just enforcing the law, while true, falls short of explaining why he couldn't or wouldn't encourage a change.

Christie doesn't owe Musk the effort. He's got his own priorities, and as much as I favor this move to legalize direct sales, I doubt it's close to the most pressing issue facing New Jersey. He's a politician, and politicians don't survive by acting not like politicians. At the end of the day, Christie still did the right thing on this issue, and that, honestly, is the most we can ever expect from politicians. There are so many who don't even do that.
 
Except that Christie just proved that his claim about himself was true, whereas Musk's claim about Christie is, well, simply speculation on his part without any real evidence.
How can you know this? Musk is not stupid.

I can sympathize with Musk for saying it, the purpose was to apply pressure and in that regards maybe it worked. But there's no reason to think his statements are any more credible than Christie's. You should assume that both of their statements are self-serving.

Can you tell anything about a person's credibility from seeing him interviewed, hear him speak, read what he writes? How else do you judge credibility? Nothing wrong with self serving for a business man, for a politician, little bit different.
Christie doesn't owe Musk the effort. He's got his own priorities, and as much as I favor this move to legalize direct sales, I doubt it's close to the most pressing issue facing New Jersey. He's a politician, and politicians don't survive by acting not like politicians. At the end of the day, Christie still did the right thing on this issue, and that, honestly, is the most we can ever expect from politicians. There are so many who don't even do that.

Meh. Weak stuff, but I'll give you that.
 
How can you know this? Musk is not stupid.

Well, no evidence of his claim was presented. And this has nothing to do with him being stupid. His purposes were served, regardless of the truth value of the statement. There's nothing stupid about that.

Can you tell anything about a person's credibility from seeing him interviewed, hear him speak, read what he writes?

Not reliably, no. The myth that you can is much the same as the lie detector belief: sometimes it works, but definitely not always, and there's really no way to tell when it will fail.

How else do you judge credibility?

By comparing their statements to their actions. Christie said he was OK with Tesla direct sales, provided it complied with state law. When the opportunity to change state law was presented to him, he signed the bill. Looks to me like he told the truth.

Nothing wrong with self serving for a business man, for a politician, little bit different.

You expect too much of politicians, then, and will be disappointed almost all the time.

Meh. Weak stuff, but I'll give you that.

Well, what did you hope for? For Christie to make this a political priority? That was never going to happen, not with Christie or any other governor. What happened is as good an outcome as was possible.

I would really love it if direct sales were legal for any and all cars. As a matter of principle, they really should be. But that's simply not going to happen unless the car manufacturers push the idea. Consumers themselves are too diffuse an interest group to compete against the concentrated interests of the dealers, so there would need to be a concentrated interest pushing for direct sales legalization. And other than bit players like Tesla, that's just not in the cards, at least not any time soon.
 
Well, no evidence of his claim was presented. And this has nothing to do with him being stupid. His purposes were served, regardless of the truth value of the statement. There's nothing stupid about that.
What I meant was that he would not be stupid enough to make untrue statements and risk his integrity like we have come to expect from certain politicians. I wonder how much you know about Musk. You know he gave away all his patents. Do conservatives see him as just another money grubbing crook?

Not reliably, no. The myth that you can is much the same as the lie detector belief: sometimes it works, but definitely not always, and there's really no way to tell when it will fail.

Well there is such a thing as "street smarts", and a person's track record, and all sorts of psychological tools, as far as ways to determine credibility.

Lie detectors are not admissible in court, but that doesn't mean that they don't work. They can be very useful in some situations.

Not to be critical, but this seems to be a shortcoming of the conservative philosophy or skill tool box. I see often overly suspicious right wing pundits, almost paranoid types finding conspiracies at every turn. Initial mistrust and the ability to rapidly size up one's opponent should be a survival strategy, but there have been quite a few notable lapses among the right in judging their enemies as well as their colleagues. I won't name them here, but I'm thinking of all these really crazy politicians that get elected and then backed up by those in power. The right seems not to be able to pick up on their disingenuous, unethical or incompetent nature.

By comparing their statements to their actions. Christie said he was OK with Tesla direct sales, provided it complied with state law. When the opportunity to change state law was presented to him, he signed the bill. Looks to me like he told the truth.

The appearance is that Christie got backed into a corner by someone smarter than he, and by public opinion, and had to back out of his deals with dealers. But I could be wrong.
You expect too much of politicians, then, and will be disappointed almost all the time.
I think this is the conservative way of looking at the world, and I don't doubt that you believe this.

As a progressive liberal, I expect much from my government and its representatives. I don't expect them to pray for rain, nor impose any other religious dogma on me, nor tell a woman what to do with her body. I expect greatness from my public school teachers, my police force, my sewage treatment plant, and my governmental meat inspectors. I generally get what I expect, and I am not often disappointed, unless the politician turns out to be a felon.

Well, what did you hope for? For Christie to make this a political priority? That was never going to happen, not with Christie or any other governor. What happened is as good an outcome as was possible.
I didn't hope for anything. I just saw a very brilliant and honest business man whom I happen to admire asking the governor to give the people what they overwhelmingly wanted, and a governor who waffled and sounded like he was trying to talk his way out of something in front of his constituents. Some of us notice stuff like that.

I would really love it if direct sales were legal for any and all cars. As a matter of principle, they really should be. But that's simply not going to happen unless the car manufacturers push the idea. Consumers themselves are too diffuse an interest group to compete against the concentrated interests of the dealers, so there would need to be a concentrated interest pushing for direct sales legalization. And other than bit players like Tesla, that's just not in the cards, at least not any time soon.

I basically agree, but Tesla is a different animal. They are not going to be a bit player for long. I'm not about to sell my stock in Tesla any time soon.
 
What I meant was that he would not be stupid enough to make untrue statements and risk his integrity like we have come to expect from certain politicians. I wonder how much you know about Musk. You know he gave away all his patents. Do conservatives see him as just another money grubbing crook?
I don't see how any of Tesla's patents were gamechangers anyway. Tesla basically does what electric cars did over 100 years ago - pack the vehicle chock-full of expensive batteries. And now, as back then, they are a niche market for the rich.

Cheaper, lighter, longer lasting batteries that charge quickly will be a gamechanger that will revolutionize electric vehicles. Or possibly standardized, interchangeable battery packs that can be swapped out at service stations as quickly as a gas tank can be filled.

But until one or both of those things happen they'll just be toys for the rich.
 
What I meant was that he would not be stupid enough to make untrue statements and risk his integrity like we have come to expect from certain politicians.

There's no risk. The thing about his assertions is that even though there's no evidence to support them, there's also no way to conclusively disprove them.

I wonder how much you know about Musk. You know he gave away all his patents. Do conservatives see him as just another money grubbing crook?

Why are you making this about "conservatives"? Are you trying to make this a partisan fight? Because nothing I said was partisan.

And "just another money grubbing crook" is a straw man.

Well there is such a thing as "street smarts", and a person's track record, and all sorts of psychological tools, as far as ways to determine credibility.

I have no reason to accept your impression of Musk's credibility based only on your impression of his interviews.

Not to be critical, but this seems to be a shortcoming of the conservative philosophy or skill tool box.

Not to be critical, but I'm going to be critical.

Don't make excuses, Olowkow. You're trying to turn this into a partisan fight when there's no reason it should be.

I see often overly suspicious right wing pundits, almost paranoid types finding conspiracies at every turn.

And yet, it's Musk who is alleging a conspiracy, not me. You aren't building much credibility yourself.

Initial mistrust and the ability to rapidly size up one's opponent should be a survival strategy, but there have been quite a few notable lapses among the right in judging their enemies as well as their colleagues. I won't name them here, but I'm thinking of all these really crazy politicians that get elected and then backed up by those in power. The right seems not to be able to pick up on their disingenuous, unethical or incompetent nature.

Again, why are you trying to turn this into a partisan fight? Is there a shortage of threads in this forum for doing that?

The appearance is that Christie got backed into a corner by someone smarter than he, and by public opinion, and had to back out of his deals with dealers. But I could be wrong.

Indeed, you could be.

I think this is the conservative way of looking at the world, and I don't doubt that you believe this.

As a progressive liberal, I expect much from my government and its representatives.

You fail to understand. This isn't about how much you want from government, it's about how to get it.

And again, why are you trying to make this a partisan fight?

I basically agree, but Tesla is a different animal. They are not going to be a bit player for long. I'm not about to sell my stock in Tesla any time soon.

Unless they start making internal combustion engine cars, they will be a bit player for at least the next decade.
 
I don't see how any of Tesla's patents were gamechangers anyway. Tesla basically does what electric cars did over 100 years ago - pack the vehicle chock-full of expensive batteries. And now, as back then, they are a niche market for the rich.
100 years ago, as in 1915? The Tesla model S is a computer on wheels.

Precision solid state speed controllers for 300 kw 3 phase motors at over 300 volts in a Tesla are a far cry from a Detroit Electric lead acid powered car or even modern golf carts. The appeal of the electric was primarily the lack of the need for hand crank starting and reliability. Better internal combustion engines and lower cost edged it out of the market.

$70,000 for the safest car ever made is a niche market for the rich?:confused:

The next "niche market" will be the self driving car, and it appears that Musk is well on his way to accomplishing this soon.

Cheaper, lighter, longer lasting batteries that charge quickly will be a gamechanger that will revolutionize electric vehicles. Or possibly standardized, interchangeable battery packs that can be swapped out at service stations as quickly as a gas tank can be filled.
Battery technology is in its infancy. Charging is still a problem as far as the time it takes, in my opinion. Inductive charging would help. Parking garages could have specially equipped spots for cordless charging. Low temperature fuel cells burning a renewable fuel would be even better.

But until one or both of those things happen they'll just be toys for the rich.
Well, I would say that Bentleys and Rolls, or even Corvettes are toys for the rich. The Tesla S is a very practical, fun and safe car for commuting to work in California, New York and Chicago right now.
 
Ziggurat:
Why are you making this about "conservatives"? Are you trying to make this a partisan fight? Because nothing I said was partisan.
I'm not trying to make this a fight at any level. I agree with much of what you say. You advised me not to expect much of politicians, and I disagree with this approach. From my discussions with other people who self identify as conservative, I have come to suspect that low expectations from government may be a characteristic of a conservative point of view. If I'm wrong in making this generalization, then I'm wrong.

"Conservative" and "liberal" are mindsets, not political parties. I am interested in observing the differences in the way the two groups view the world. I really believe that we have important systematic differences in the way we interpret events, often shockingly so, but there are surely advantages and disadvantages in each philosophical approach. It's just anthropology, and I really didn't intend any offense.
 
$70,000 for the safest car ever made is a niche market for the rich?:confused:

Well, yes, obviously. It's $70,000. For a car. It doesn't matter what the car is like, at $70,000, it's a niche market.

Battery technology is in its infancy.

No it's not.

Well, I would say that Bentleys and Rolls, or even Corvettes are toys for the rich. The Tesla S is a very practical, fun and safe car for commuting to work in California, New York and Chicago right now.

Yes, it's a great car. It's also $70,000.
 
We're at the end point in power density? I'll defer to your knowledge of physics, but how do you conclude this?

No, we're not at the end point. Mature technologies can still further improve for a long time. But batteries are not new technology. Not even rechargeable batteries. Yes, we can expect battery technology to continue to improve, but we can also expect those improvements to be slow. Massive rapid improvements (such as what occur frequently in truly "infant" technology) are unlikely at this point. Surprises might be possible, but they would indeed be surprises.
 
No, we're not at the end point. Mature technologies can still further improve for a long time. But batteries are not new technology. Not even rechargeable batteries. Yes, we can expect battery technology to continue to improve, but we can also expect those improvements to be slow. Massive rapid improvements (such as what occur frequently in truly "infant" technology) are unlikely at this point. Surprises might be possible, but they would indeed be surprises.

OK. "Teen age years" or "middle age" then.:rolleyes:

I was thinking of breakthroughs in rapid graphene production that I just read about. There are apparently industrial applications for battery technology. Interesting though the topic is, I'm afraid of getting off topic here, so I'll bow out. I really don't have any more opinions on Christie to offer.
 

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