Going to hell in a hand basket

coberst

Critical Thinker
C
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
415
Going to hell in a hand basket

In the world of natural science existence is that which is measurable. If it cannot be measured it does not exist--except as that which must be exorcised--in any important way in the world of natural science. In the world of capitalism existence is that which correlates with commodity (an object of commerce). A person has value because s/he produces and/or consumes commodities.

The ideology of capitalism determines what is valuable and the nation’s institutions are determined by this ideology. Our schools are designed to produce good workers and hardy consumers. If a person wishes to be more than a producer or consumer s/he must find a way to do so without a great deal of help from the nation’s institutions.

To a large extent we are puppets of an ideology but we retain a degree of self-determination depending upon our strength of will, character, and intellectually developed desire.

Every capitalistic nation is on a trajectory greatly determined by the logic (principles) of capitalism. The logic of capitalism is constructed to facilitate the production and consumption of commodities. If we study the logic of capitalism we can, I think, accurately predict the trajectory of society.

I predict that we (the world) are “going to hell in a hand basket”. What do you think about this bit of prophecy? If you agree, what can you and I do today to help start a change in trajectory?
 
coberst said:
Going to hell in a hand basket

In the world of natural science existence is that which is measurable. If it cannot be measured it does not exist--except as that which must be exorcised--in any important way in the world of natural science. In the world of capitalism existence is that which correlates with commodity (an object of commerce). A person has value because s/he produces and/or consumes commodities.

The ideology of capitalism determines what is valuable and the nation’s institutions are determined by this ideology. Our schools are designed to produce good workers and hardy consumers. If a person wishes to be more than a producer or consumer s/he must find a way to do so without a great deal of help from the nation’s institutions.

To a large extent we are puppets of an ideology but we retain a degree of self-determination depending upon our strength of will, character, and intellectually developed desire.

Every capitalistic nation is on a trajectory greatly determined by the logic (principles) of capitalism. The logic of capitalism is constructed to facilitate the production and consumption of commodities. If we study the logic of capitalism we can, I think, accurately predict the trajectory of society.

I predict that we (the world) are “going to hell in a hand basket”. What do you think about this bit of prophecy? If you agree, what can you and I do today to help start a change in trajectory?
Click to expand...

i think you missed a few intermediate steps in your argument, between

If we study the logic of capitalism we can, I think, accurately predict the trajectory of society

and

I predict that we (the world) are “going to hell in a hand basket”.
 
andyandy said:
i think you missed a few intermediate steps in your argument, between

If we study the logic of capitalism we can, I think, accurately predict the trajectory of society

and

I predict that we (the world) are “going to hell in a hand basket”.
Click to expand...


I contend that Wal-Mart is ‘the logic of capitalism’. I mean that if one follows the principles of capitalism the result would be Wal-Mart. To me this means that in a capitalistic society Wal-Mart is acting logically.

When I say that most nations in the world are trying to stop Iran from making a bomb and that this is a rational action I mean that they are following the logic of their principles. Likewise Iran is following the logic of the principles of a sovereign nation.

So, when both entities are doing what they are doing we have a situation that if we follow the logic of the matter we will in short order have a world wherein almost all nations will have the bomb or we have a war between the two entities, the group and the one, ad infinitum.

The logic of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) was all we could depend upon during the cold war. It appears to me that today we still only have the logic of MAD. When the world is filled with nations with the bomb will not the logic of human action, as we perceive that logic to be from past history, dictate that the bomb will be used?
 
Is it just me, or is none of this making sense to anyone else?

Wal Mart and MAD?

Help.
 
You entire analysis and hence predictions fail on this:

Every capitalistic nation is on a trajectory greatly determined by the logic (principles) of capitalism. The logic of capitalism is constructed to facilitate the production and consumption of commodities.
Click to expand...

The fact is there is no "contructed logic" of capitalism. In fact, you confuse matters by using the term "capitalism".

What we do have is a long history of study (economics) that has come to certain (reasonably) verifiable conclusions about what happens when people are allowed to pursue their own self interest. That result is for the most parts the widest availablity and most efficient production of all the goods and services we need to survive and enrich our lives (by our own judgement that is, not by your judgement for example) and as a result we get higher incomes, employment and welfare than if we tried to direct affairs (review the collapse of any socialist economy you care to mention).

So you see, "capitilism" or perhaps more accurately market based economies, contain the basis of their own success. They are driven not by any construct, but by our own needs and desires and the tend to bring about the best, most efficient use of the limtied resources available to us.

Nothing is impossible, but I would guess your prediction is most improbable.
 
coberst said:
It is complicated. You must pay attention.
Click to expand...

You are confusing 'complicated' with 'insane pretentious ravings'.

Either that or like most (all?) of your OPs, it is complicated because you are overcomplicating a very simple and obvious point...I can't tell...

The two possibilities might actually be only one.

Are you actually taking notice of people's responses to your posting/writing style/approach?
 
Geckko said:
You entire analysis and hence predictions fail on this:



The fact is there is no "contructed logic" of capitalism. In fact, you confuse matters by using the term "capitalism".

What we do have is a long history of study (economics) that has come to certain (reasonably) verifiable conclusions about what happens when people are allowed to pursue their own self interest. That result is for the most parts the widest availablity and most efficient production of all the goods and services we need to survive and enrich our lives (by our own judgement that is, not by your judgement for example) and as a result we get higher incomes, employment and welfare than if we tried to direct affairs (review the collapse of any socialist economy you care to mention).

So you see, "capitilism" or perhaps more accurately market based economies, contain the basis of their own success. They are driven not by any construct, but by our own needs and desires and the tend to bring about the best, most efficient use of the limtied resources available to us.

Nothing is impossible, but I would guess your prediction is most improbable.
Click to expand...


Is it your contention that capitalism has no principles (logic) that guides its ideology?
 
DreadNiK said:
You are confusing 'complicated' with 'insane pretentious ravings'.

Either that or like most (all?) of your OPs, it is complicated because you are overcomplicating a very simple and obvious point...I can't tell...

The two possibilities might actually be only one.

Are you actually taking notice of people's responses to your posting/writing style/approach?
Click to expand...

No, I do not think that I am confusing 'complicated' with 'insane pretentious ravings'. I think that these matters are complicated especially when one tries to 'see' beyond superficial appearances.
 
coberst said:
Is it your contention that capitalism has no principles (logic) that guides its ideology?
Click to expand...

It has billions of principles -- each capitalistic act is presumably based on a principle held by the individual actor. While many principles are alike, no two principles are exactly the same.
 
coberst said:
Is it your contention that capitalism has no principles (logic) that guides its ideology?
Click to expand...

That is what I am saying, except I don't like the term "capitilism" because I think it misrepreents what we are talking about (being as it is a Marxist originating political term)

What you witness in market based economies is the sum of all personal decisions (logical or not).

Economic theory can give a remarkably accurate description of what is going on and why by using some very elementary assumptions. Pretty much:

People will chose to do things that make them "feel" better.

If I try to shoe-horn this into your analysis - this is the "logic of capitalism". It isn't "constructed to facilitate production, consumption" etc. etc. etc. Those things just happen as a natural consequence.
 
Rob Lister said:
It has billions of principles -- each capitalistic act is presumably based on a principle held by the individual actor. While many principles are alike, no two principles are exactly the same.
Click to expand...

Sounds like funny principles!
 
Geckko said:
That is what I am saying, except I don't like the term "capitilism" because I think it misrepreents what we are talking about (being as it is a Marxist originating political term)

What you witness in market based economies is the sum of all personal decisions (logical or not).

Economic theory can give a remarkably accurate description of what is going on and why by using some very elementary assumptions. Pretty much:

People will chose to do things that make them "feel" better.

If I try to shoe-horn this into your analysis - this is the "logic of capitalism". It isn't "constructed to facilitate production, consumption" etc. etc. etc. Those things just happen as a natural consequence.
Click to expand...

Doing what feels good is a funny kind of principle.
 
coberst said:
Doing what feels good is a funny kind of principle.
Click to expand...

Didn't you read what I said??

There are no "principles", "contructed logic" or anything else. It just is. All we can do is try to understand why it is.

The question you are asking is like asking what is the constructed logic behind gravity? There is none, it just is.
 
coberst said:
It is complicated. You must pay attention.
Click to expand...

Individual parts of it are understandable - though only accurate if your definitions, explanations and assumptions are correct, which is not my assumption after reading them and initial comments/adjustments.
 
Of course, colberst himself is living in a western, capitalist country and isn't planning to leave anytime soon to, say, Cuba or North Korea. A typical "anti-capitalist" hypocrite who obviously plans to spend the rest of his life in a capitalist country because, you know, tiny little things like their vastly superior standards of living, health, human rights, etc., etc.
 
coberst said:
Every capitalistic nation is on a trajectory greatly determined by the logic (principles) of capitalism. The logic of capitalism is constructed to facilitate the production and consumption of commodities. If we study the logic of capitalism we can, I think, accurately predict the trajectory of society.

I predict that we (the world) are “going to hell in a hand basket”. What do you think about this bit of prophecy? If you agree, what can you and I do today to help start a change in trajectory?
Click to expand...

Bzzzt! You lose.

ThanksforplayingpleasetryagainSmithersreleasethehounds.
 
coberst said:
Doing what feels good is a funny kind of principle.
Click to expand...

Correct. But the system that lets you do what feels good if you want to (within well-defined limits), has that other name, "freedom"; while the system you support--that will force you to do what the system thinks you should--has that other name, "opression".
 
Last edited:
coberst said:
Every capitalistic nation is on a trajectory greatly determined by the logic (principles) of capitalism. The logic of capitalism is constructed to facilitate the production and consumption of commodities. If we study the logic of capitalism we can, I think, accurately predict the trajectory of society.
Click to expand...

Yes, Marx's, I mean Lenin's, I mean Stalin's, I mean Mao's, I mean Pol Pot's, I mean King Jong Il's, prediction about how "studying the logic of capitalism" absolutely proves the capitalist countries are going to collapse long before 1900, I mean 1920, I mean 1940, I mean 1960, I mean 1980, I mean 2000, have all been proven fantastically accurate, haven't they?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom