• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Global Warming Debate: Both Viewpoints Irrelevant

The_Animus

Illuminator
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Messages
3,582
Whether you believe that humans are causing global warming or not, whether you believe global warming is happening or not, I say it's utterly irrelevant. Either way I have outlined a simple drawing which I will use to help explain why we need to change the way our economy and society work.



Many of our resources are finite. History shows that the human population has been continually increasing. History also shows that yearly resource use per person has been steadily increasing. Ultimately this means that we will consume limited resources at an ever increasing rate until they are depleted.

If resource use causes pollution, and it most certainly does, then as resource use increases so does pollution.

Therefor if these trends continue, then at some future point, whether it's 50, 100, or 150 years from now, we will use up, pollute, or otherwise destroy things which are necessary for our survival.

A sustainable economy and society is the only long term solution. Global Warming may or may not cause us some serious problem in the next 50 years, but at some point if we don't change we're going to have serious problems anyway and there is no time like the present to start changing.

There are those who state we cannot do this because it would hurt the economy, people would lose their jobs, it would be too costly, etc. Yeah, that's called switching costs, and they are indeed a high toll to pay. However putting it off until there are even more people, using even more of our ever diminishing resources will be all the harder and more costly.

Questions?

Too bad :p
 
Yes, in the long term the sun suffers a fatal build up of iron in its core, forcing the fusion reaction outwards, the sun expands, swallowing mercury and hitting Venus' orbit, roasting the earth to a cinder.

In the short term, you have failed to prove your arguments. You state resources are used? Really? In all of human history, we have probably 'used up' a few million atoms of copper. Perhaps a few orders of magnitude more. Certainly not as much as a gram.

Resources can be recycled. They're atoms. They're virtually indestructible.

Oh, I see. It's energy. Yes, we're rather dependent on the sun for that long term. The problem is the entire energy production of the entire human race in all of human history is maybe thirty seconds of the sun's production. Possibly a great deal less.

So we're not even close to using that resource very well.

Oh, it's food! Hypothesis not proven. Food is renewable too. And we haven't seriously tapped over half the planet's usable area - we have no ocean based food crops. That's changing. Moreover, food is a function of energy. Energy is a function of the sun. We're not close to using all of that that even hits earth.

Face it. Despite the fashionable nihilism of a few really stupid pseudo-intellectuals, humanity is going to be around for a very long time.

It's damn well time to start planning for it.
 
Great. Then I suppose you can provide one, just one irreplaceable resource we'll run out of in lets say, the next... um... million years. How's that?

Coal. (Even if the estimates are off by a factor of 1,000).

Worldwide, compared to all other fossil fuels, coal is the most abundant and is widely distributed across the continents. The estimate for the world's total recoverable reserves of coal as of January 1, 2006 was 930 billion short tons. The resulting ratio of coal reserves to consumption is approximately 138 years, meaning that at current rates of consumption, current coal reserves could last that long.
 
Last edited:
Fully replaceable. What does coal do? Provide energy. Yeah, we can manage to get that a number of ways.

So you weren't looking for an example of a resource. Energy is not a resource (at least not in the way the OP means).

It's like complaining we're running out of typewriters.

No, it is like complaining we are running out of materials which can be made into typewriters.
 
Last edited:
Breathable air, fresh water.

Really? Oxygen is doing fine. Hasn't moved in much in a while (probably at least 100 million years to be conservative). Ooh! You mean that the air quality? Which has pretty much been improving steadily due to regulations and technology?

Or water? You mean the stuff that evaporates then falls from the sky? Yeah, don't see the issue.
 
So you weren't looking for an example of a resource. Energy is not a resource (at least not in the way the OP means).



No, it is like complaining we are running out of materials which can be made into typewriters.
But we're NOT! We have as much metal, as much carbon, as much typewriter materials as we ever did.

Coal does one thing. It makes energy. Wee. Hardly irreplaceable. We can think of a dozen technologies that do that.

I really hate idiots of the 'it doesn't matter, we're all going to die' variety.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_crisis

Keep putting your fingers in your ears.

Yeah, I do like that summary:
2 billion people have gained access to a safe water source since 1990. [3] The proportion of people in developing countries with access to safe water is calculated to have improved from 30 percent in 1970[5] to 71 percent in 1990, 79 percent in 2000 and 84 percent in 2004, parallel with rising population. This trend is projected to continue. [4]

Thanks.

So yes, access might continue to be a political mess, and certainly there's an argument that the replenishment rate is not enough to support serious population growth past the mark we're at now (and possibly we might even like to be at a lower mark), but run out of water?

That's insanity.
 
Boy, you sure love that word, "energy".

Yes, it's an interesting one. Energy defines, well... basically absolutely everything. Energy, matter, and time. All products can be reduced to certain amounts of all three.
 
I said fresh water. You can drink the ocean's water if you like, I'll stick to tap water. thanks

Pardy, it comes down from the sky. Regularly. It's constantly being replenished. If you have some amazing thoughts on why evaporation might suddenly stop happening, please, do share.

I find it so interesting that people who reject 'humans will all die when Jesus come back and the Book of Revelations comes true' will accept without the least bit of critical thinking 'humans will all die when we run out of [unamed resources] at [some point].'
 
Pardy, it comes down from the sky.

Wow, then there is no problem then if it comes from the sky.

Earth's problems solved. :rolleyes:

Regularly. It's constantly being replenished.
Not if the Earth is going to increase its temperature, and not if we're going to keep polluting our ecosystems.

If you have some amazing thoughts on why evaporation might suddenly stop happening, please, do share.
I'm sure evaporation works just fine on Mars too.

I find it so interesting that people who reject 'humans will all die when Jesus come back and the Book of Revelations comes true' will accept without the least bit of critical thinking 'humans will all die when we run out of [unamed resources] at [some point].'
uh?
 

Back
Top Bottom