I really cannot see how he can be rejected on the grounds that his claim is worthless. All the other claims we hear about are also worthless. He may be mentally ill, but again, how can we be sure that he is? Or that the others are not?
He is apparently delighting a crowd of followers with his magical miracle, and earning a good deal of money with it, or he would not be so concerned about copyrighting his material.
To me it seems more like he has found some kind of trick that he believes is so clever that nobody can find out.
Besides, isn't it bad PR for the JREF when certain claims are dismissed as worthless? Soon he will be all over the place, claiming that Randi was afraid of testing his claim?
He is apparently delighting a crowd of followers with his magical miracle, and earning a good deal of money with it, or he would not be so concerned about copyrighting his material.
To me it seems more like he has found some kind of trick that he believes is so clever that nobody can find out.
Besides, isn't it bad PR for the JREF when certain claims are dismissed as worthless? Soon he will be all over the place, claiming that Randi was afraid of testing his claim?
Nex
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Yaotl said:
I would think so, yes. For the JREF to turn away a claim that falls within the guidelines would just make a bad situation worse, IMO. The woo community distrusts the JREF enough-- to turn down what, to them, is a valid claim, would just confirm all their theories about it being rigged or a conspiracy or what-have-you. Then the challenge becomes wholly worthless.
Nex said:
Or the JREF could be so inundated with worthless claims that no one would want to be a tester as has been demonstrated in the recent past. The woo-woo community could also point and say that the JREF only ever seems to test the fringes of their community and never bothers to test those with valid* claims (eventhough they never apply)
*and by valid I just mean what they see as valid.
Nex
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Yaotl said:
I see what you mean, but I think no matter what the JREF does, there will be parts of the woo community who will think that way. Unfortunately, the challenge is directed at them, so the JREF needs to be as fair as possible for them to take it seriously.
Hmeh. Can't win for losing, I guess. There will always be those who claim they've already "proven" their abilities, and those who claim they were turned away for no reason, etc. etc. Along with that, there will always be few scientists who will be willing to give their time to test woo-woo claims.
I certainly don't envy Randi or the JREF. This can't be easy.
The problem is that some claims are simply inherently difficult to test. In order to have unambiguous evidence of the paranormal, you have to prove that there's a real effect happening (you're doing something more reliably than mere chance) and that there's no non-paranormal explanation. The former typically requires a base to compare against, and the latter requires ruling out all sorts of normal ways to produce the same effect (some of which some people might characterize as 'cheating').
A test that can't do these things isn't very useful, because it doesn't actually demonstrate that there's a real paranormal effect.
A big part of the problem here is simply that skeptics have a more rigorous requirement for 'proof' than believers do, and to win the $1M, you have to meet the tougher standard. A lot of people simply don't understand what that standard implies.
A test that can't do these things isn't very useful, because it doesn't actually demonstrate that there's a real paranormal effect.
A big part of the problem here is simply that skeptics have a more rigorous requirement for 'proof' than believers do, and to win the $1M, you have to meet the tougher standard. A lot of people simply don't understand what that standard implies.
That is what the challenge says. Shine Sun with his claim that he could make a light ray appear between himself and a subject to whom he transfers magical energy, was accepted. Why accept one outrageous claim and not another?Yaotl said:
In fact, why have the challenge at all, if "worthless" claims will not be tested?
steenkh said:
Like so many others. Let him whine right alongside all the other so-called applicants who never even submitted an application.
It's not my job to oversee PR for the JREF.
Nor is it my job to temper my evaluations of individual claims by considering the potential embarrassment for JREF. My evaluations must remain impartial and unbiased.
And may I ask: How can JREF dismiss a claim for which they have not received an application? We've "dismissed" nothing.
I remind you now that we have no application on file from this person. Indeed, we cannot even be absolutely sure that this entire thread is not a joke perpetrated upon us by someone with lots of free time and a paucity of constructive ideas.
I really don't think this should even be discussed any futher, at least until JREF receives a notarized application. Only then will my comments and evaluations be in any way binding, and only thereafter will I consider Shine Sun to be a real person with a real claim in the real world. So far, this has been little more than a comedy. A mere trifle.
A mere trifle.
Worthless???
You misunderstand the very nature of the Challenge application process. Your interpretation is somewhat unsettling.
Test protocols are not negotiated here on the forum, but rather between Randi (the JREF) or myself, and the applicant.
The claim has not been "rejected", as there is no claim without a duly executed application.
Once we receive the application (which I sincerely doubt we ever will), a case file will be opened, and the negotiations on preliminary test protocol begin.
"Worthless" is a value judgement. I do my very best not to judge a claim's "worth" upon receipt. I only attempt to judge conclusively whether or not a claim is truly paranormal. If that judgement is made in the affirmative, the claim is accepted, as that is the sole criteria for the JREF Paranormal Challenge.
Those are the only grounds for acceptance or rejection of a claim.
Only an unsuccessful demonstration by the applicant will render a claim "worthless", and that judgement will be made as a result of observations made during testing. If the protocol was properly devised, there should be nothing to "judge", as the results will be self-evident and wholly inarguable.
steenkh said:
You misunderstand the very nature of the Challenge application process. Your interpretation is somewhat unsettling.
Test protocols are not negotiated here on the forum, but rather between Randi (the JREF) or myself, and the applicant.
The claim has not been "rejected", as there is no claim without a duly executed application.
Once we receive the application (which I sincerely doubt we ever will), a case file will be opened, and the negotiations on preliminary test protocol begin.
"Worthless" is a value judgement. I do my very best not to judge a claim's "worth" upon receipt. I only attempt to judge conclusively whether or not a claim is truly paranormal. If that judgement is made in the affirmative, the claim is accepted, as that is the sole criteria for the JREF Paranormal Challenge.
Those are the only grounds for acceptance or rejection of a claim.
Only an unsuccessful demonstration by the applicant will render a claim "worthless", and that judgement will be made as a result of observations made during testing. If the protocol was properly devised, there should be nothing to "judge", as the results will be self-evident and wholly inarguable.
Beleth
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Re: Worthless???
After reading this, it is obvious that you do not consider Mr. Vaugn's claim worthless. But I would suggest that it is possible, if not reasonable, to infer that conclusion by what you said in the main post in the subforum.
I feel like I should repeat what I said above, too.
He says that by repeating a few words near a certain container, that rocks which can be photographed appear in midair in the room where the container is. It doesn't even have to be himself who says the words.
It sounds to me that an objective test could easily be built around that claim. Maybe not around the claim that he can make people see balls of gas, but certainly around the claim that floating rocks can be both seen and photographed.
KRAMER said:
After reading this, it is obvious that you do not consider Mr. Vaugn's claim worthless. But I would suggest that it is possible, if not reasonable, to infer that conclusion by what you said in the main post in the subforum.
I feel like I should repeat what I said above, too.
He says that by repeating a few words near a certain container, that rocks which can be photographed appear in midair in the room where the container is. It doesn't even have to be himself who says the words.
It sounds to me that an objective test could easily be built around that claim. Maybe not around the claim that he can make people see balls of gas, but certainly around the claim that floating rocks can be both seen and photographed.
A Wicked Stillness This Way Cometh
I repeat, we still have no application from this person, or any real evidence that this is anything but a ruse.
All we have from SHINE SUN is Dead Silence.
I only wish Peter Morris was so quiet.
steenkh said:
I repeat, we still have no application from this person, or any real evidence that this is anything but a ruse.
All we have from SHINE SUN is Dead Silence.
I only wish Peter Morris was so quiet.