Free Will and Exodus

Jas

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Okay, this has probably been answered a thousand times, but for me, it's the biggest 'contradiction' there is:

How can people say that God gives us free will, when certain passages in Exodus show us, beyond a doubt, that if He wants to make a point, our free will is removed?
 
Jas said:
How can people say that God gives us free will, when certain passages in Exodus show us, beyond a doubt, that if He wants to make a point, our free will is removed?
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Easy -- apologetics.


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Nex said:
Don't want to believe that God the Almighty approved of slavery? Can't handle the thought of stoning your neighbor for working on Sunday?
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There's nothing in the Bible about not working on Sunday.

Saturday, yes. Not working on Saturday is one of the Ten Commandments, and yes, breaking it carries a mandatory death penalty.
 
You're a nitpicky ol' bastard, aren't you? :D

... no sense of humor you don't have... sheesh...
 
Okay. Just wondering if there was a specific passage that refuted that, or if it was just some messed up rationalisations that lead people to ignore that part.
 
The standard "apology" is that these people were so corrupt and vile that it really didn't matter that God forced them do these things.

I assume you're talking about the times God forces people to do evil. Forcing people to do good sounds like a fine idea to me....
 
How can you believe in free will, and at the same time always praying that " God's will be done ", or claiming that this or that was God's will , and nothing to do with the idiotic behaviour ( free will ), of say, a drunk driver?
 
It would be far more realistic to believe in two gods of equal power influencing matters, as it would explain the contradictions of good and evil.

Or we could believe in one god, but give him split personality disorder.

Least realistic of the bunch is one good god whose actions, no matter how insane they appear, are all part of some grand plan that makes perfect sense if only we knew it, which we can never do, since only the god is capable of understanding it. So blue is red, A is not A, and circles are square and we just have to accept it all on faith. Or he'll kill us and torment our souls for all eternity. Out of love. Which sounds funny, but is actually ineffable.
 
Jas said:
Okay, this has probably been answered a thousand times, but for me, it's the biggest 'contradiction' there is:

How can people say that God gives us free will, when certain passages in Exodus show us, beyond a doubt, that if He wants to make a point, our free will is removed?
Click to expand...

This subject generates quite a bit of discussion among the medieval commentators, specifically regarding "And the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart," and the like.

The approaches I recall offhand include the following:

- Free will exists, but only to a point. By consistently choosing evil a person can forfeit free will and be fixed on the "evil" path.

- In Pharaoh's case the hardening of the heart was actually a restoration of his free will in the face of overwhelming plagues and divine miracles.

There are definitely other explanations, but these are the ones I don't have to look up.
 
ChristineR said:
The standard "apology" is that these people were so corrupt and vile that it really didn't matter that God forced them do these things.
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The problem here would be that Pharoah had in fact decided that he'd do the right thing. So God foprced him to do the wrong thing. So that God would have an excuse for killing babies.
 
David Swidler said:
- Free will exists, but only to a point. By consistently choosing evil a person can forfeit free will and be fixed on the "evil" path.
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This doesn't apply to Pharoah, since he had decided, of his own free will, to do the right thing. God forcibly put him back on the "evil" path.

- In Pharaoh's case the hardening of the heart was actually a restoration of his free will in the face of overwhelming plagues and divine miracles.
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Hold up. If witnessing a miracle deprives someone of their free will, then God has a lot more explaining to do on this whole "free will" issue.

But it doesn't have such an effect, anyway. How could it?
 
Dr Adequate said:
There's nothing in the Bible about not working on Sunday.

Saturday, yes. Not working on Saturday is one of the Ten Commandments, and yes, breaking it carries a mandatory death penalty.
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See? The apologizing starts already! "The Bible doesn't ban working on Sunday, the Sabbath was Saturday back then. Say, isn't that a lovely doggie in the window over there? Let's go look!"

=-)
 
I love the Pharoah stories. There's one there the apologists can't work around: Who turned Pharoah's priest's sticks into two snakes?

The story was intended to show Yahweh was the baddest of the badass gods. But doesn't that imply real, existing, other gods?

Clearly the Bible states it was Pharoah's religion's gods. Therfore it cannot have been Beealzebubb secretly in disguise, since the Bible is truth. Also, there is no hint that that is the case, anyway.

Via similar reasoning, we may conclude the priest didn't use good old sleight-of-hand. Again, the story does not hint at that, and if he did, then Moses might have used the same trick. So that is out.

And furthermore, only gods can create life (as Yahweh's hissy fit in Job and elsewhere amply states.) So therefore these entities, whatever they were, didn't just teleport in pre-existing snakes from elsewhere. To suggest so also violates the principle that the story is true as described. (It may have a parable, but is intended to be "true" as written, with no comic book Monday morning quartebacking allowed to make it jive with other beliefs.)

Therefore, according to the Bible, other gods do exist, and have very real powers.
 
Beerina said:
"Say, isn't that a lovely doggie in the window over there? Let's go look!"
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"And if any man should seduce thee, or thy servant, or thy wife, or thy ox, to gaze upon an idol of a doggie, and saith, Behold, it is fair! then he shall be put to death; you must show him no mercy."
 
Dr Adequate said:
Hold up. If witnessing a miracle deprives someone of their free will, then God has a lot more explaining to do on this whole "free will" issue.

But it doesn't have such an effect, anyway. How could it?
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Apparently, "having free will" as used here doesn't mean "having the ability to do what you want", but rather something like "being unsure about what it is that you really do want".

Which is not a bad definition of free will, actually. Except it's not at all clear why that sort of free will is a good thing to have. Why is it better to lack some relevant information and therefore to be unsure, than to have all the information and therefore to be sure?
 
Beerina said:
Therefore, according to the Bible, other gods do exist, and have very real powers.
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I thought that was made pretty clear when YWH said


" Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods before me. "


If there were no other Gods, why bother ? Could have freed up space for another commandment.. I've always thought we could have used:

" Thou shalt not suffer the little children to eat broccoli .. "
 
Another way you can bypass this problem is by asking for a coherent definition of free will and not receiving one. Then the whole problem just goes away. Easy pie.

~~ Paul
 
Beerina said:
I love the Pharoah stories. There's one there the apologists can't work around: Who turned Pharoah's priest's sticks into two snakes?
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I know, Exodus is one of my favourites for for that.

And frankly, the books of Moses go downhill after that.
 
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