Frank Greening's Latest dust study.

So the samples he tested from the first responder contained no iron spheres... and those were recovered during the clean up period... is that correct?

IIRC... the Harrit samples were collected from something like 7 locations and some as far as Chambers and West Broadway and his claim is that they contained evidence of molten metal... is that correct?
 
So the samples he tested from the first responder contained no iron spheres... and those were recovered during the clean up period... is that correct?

IIRC... the Harrit samples were collected from something like 7 locations and some as far as Chambers and West Broadway and his claim is that they contained evidence of molten metal... is that correct?

No the samples of dirrect dust from 9/11/2001 contained a limited amount of microspheres from welding and grinding the steel, and that is all that were found.

The Samples Harrit and Jones found were most likely contamination, from cutting and some from Trucks and Equipment, brakes using cast iron drums and Rotors.

He didn't have the funds to test the red grey chips, he hasn't appealed for
Donations he did this out of his own pocket.
 
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A simple summary, as far as I can tell, is that a sample of dust collected by a first responder - in effect - immediately after the collapse of WTC2 contained particles mostly indicative of debris from drywall and concrete floor slabs, but also a small amount of iron-rich particles whose composition was consistent with having been produced in the construction of the towers by metal grinding equipment. This is from the iron/manganese ratio, which looks more like that of WTC structural steel than that of ambient atmospheric dust in general. Overall it's saying that what was in the dust from the WTC collapses was pretty much what you'd expect to be there.

Thermite proponents will no doubt immediately reject the paper on the grounds that thermite could have produced sufficiently high temperatures to generate the spherical particles observed, but they'll then have to assume that the thermite was specifically formulated to produce the correct iron/manganese ratio (on top of the usual attempt to reverse the burden of proof).

Dave
 
A simple summary, as far as I can tell, is that a sample of dust collected by a first responder - in effect - immediately after the collapse of WTC2 contained particles mostly indicative of debris from drywall and concrete floor slabs, but also a small amount of iron-rich particles whose composition was consistent with having been produced in the construction of the towers by metal grinding equipment. This is from the iron/manganese ratio, which looks more like that of WTC structural steel than that of ambient atmospheric dust in general. Overall it's saying that what was in the dust from the WTC collapses was pretty much what you'd expect to be there.

Thermite proponents will no doubt immediately reject the paper on the grounds that thermite could have produced sufficiently high temperatures to generate the spherical particles observed, but they'll then have to assume that the thermite was specifically formulated to produce the correct iron/manganese ratio (on top of the usual attempt to reverse the burden of proof).



Dave

They would have to explain why there is no Al203, or Al in the microspheres.
In any significant amout and also how the microspheres got into the dust samples so far away from the collapse zone.

The burden of proof is on the Truthers now.
 
You would think that one of the Truth Movement people here would like to comment on this, but Either they have me on ignore, or they are holding their breath waiting on Basile to finnish his study of contaminated dust.
 
I took my time reading the 44 pages. I did not look up references, did not check out whether the equations are proper, and did not do the calculations, so there is that.

I find the paper fairly well done. I was confused a bit in the early part about the percentages of elements - the business of eliminating C and O and normalizing all the rest to 100% and then comparing the results with other studies. On page 8: "Oxygen, typically ~ 50%, was also excluded from the data and the remaining elements adjusted to 100 %. The resulting percent concentrations are given in Table 1 and are compared to data from Reference [3]."
My problem is that the 10 major elements listed in column 1 of Table 1 add up to to only 37%. It seems that at least O is not excluded; if it were 50%, the total would be 87% - still too short of 100%. He might even have left C in the mix (Fig. 5 has C between 14% and 27%). The reference samples add up to 27.2% and 75.5%, respecticely - quite a span! Obviously, Greening did NOT normalize the elements other than C and O to 100%, and thus the comparison he draws is flawed.

This is, however, properly done in Tables 2 to 5. I am not sure about Table 6.


I like the part about estimating how different particle size fractions would fall out of the dust cloud as a function of distance to GZ;I particularly like the fact that Greening is aware that hos theoretical work does not allow for making predictions about particle size distributions as a function of distance, for that would require knowing the distribution at distance = 0 - i.e. the particle size distribution created by the collapse!
What I would suggest for a follow-up paper (and I have little doubt Frank is thinking about this already) is: Analyze the as-found size distribution of samples from known distances, and calculate back to the original size distribution. The latter is an important input to estimating the size of the energy sink that crushing concrete was. I saw a paper the other by Robert Korol at al (Truthers) that assumed, out of the blue, a particle size distribution and calculated that it would have required 4 times the available Potential Energy to generate such fine dust. (Of course no doubt emanates in that paper that perhaps the assumption was bollocks)


Greening concludes that various particles he finds, and finds to be typical for the dust, are consistent with, and thus plausibly explained as originating with concrete aggregate, fly ash, welding and cutting/grinding, all present since construction time, and some modified by HCl during the time the PVC on several floors burned.

I agree that this is plausible - but of course nothing more.
In terms of methodology, this is only somewhat more solid than what certain Truther "scientists" did (I am looking at you, Steven "Jesus visited America" Jones), when they claim that certain microspheres are consistent with thermite reaction residue.

Greening's paper can thus serve as a useful antidote to such Twoofiness, by showing that very trivial explanations exist, such that the outrageous speculations by Jones are wholely unnecessary and discouraged by Occam. It's a tough sell, though - seeing that it's 44 pages with math, rather than a YouTube video.


You would think that one of the Truth Movement people here would like to comment on this, but Either they have me on ignore, or they are holding their breath waiting on Basile to finnish his study of contaminated dust.
This is miles beyond their level of comprehension or even interest.
 
Even if you accept his unproven hypothesis that the proliferation of intact iron-rich microspheres were the result of welding and grinding that occurred 30 years ago, Greening's selective analysis fails to explain, or address, Dr. Harrit et als' observations that thermitic red chips pervade the 9/11 WTC dust.
 
Even if you accept his unproven hypothesis that the proliferation of intact iron-rich microspheres were the result of welding and grinding that occurred 30 years ago, Greening's selective analysis fails to explain, or address, Dr. Harrit et als' observations claims that thermitic red chips pervade the 9/11 WTC dust.

Which of course it doesn't need to, those claims having already been dismissed as specious.

Dave
 
Even if you accept his unproven hypothesis that the proliferation of intact iron-rich microspheres were the result of welding and grinding that occurred 30 years ago, Greening's selective analysis fails to explain, or address, Dr. Harrit et als' observations that thermitic red chips pervade the 9/11 WTC dust.

Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Edited for rule 7.
Do not post on behalf of banned members.
 
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Even if you accept his unproven hypothesis that the proliferation of intact iron-rich microspheres were the result of welding and grinding that occurred 30 years ago, Greening's selective analysis fails to explain, or address, Dr. Harrit et als' observations that thermitic red chips pervade the 9/11 WTC dust.
Harrit fool you and a fringe few.

Harrit found no thermite in the chips. Harrit's idiotic claim includes 10 tons to 100 tons of thermite used in the WTC complex. Yet, not one ounce of iron from a thermite reaction was found at the WTC. Where is the iron, a product of thermite, which would be in the tons found after the gravity collapse due to fire. oops, it was fire, not thermite.

Maybe 9/11 truth followers are unable to grasp the math associated with the office fires prior to collapse being equal in heat energy of over 2,700 tons of thermite. There is no need for thermite, the office fires caused the collapse.

It appear you have no idea what the products of thermite are past the fantasy claim iron particles found in dust are from thermite planted by people you can Harrit can't name.

How can Greening explain or address a fantasy of thermite only found in the minds of a few 9/11 truth nuts, Jones, Harrit, et al.

9/11 truth and you have nothing but speculation for the fantasy of thermite. You have No evidence steel was damaged by thermite on 9/11. 9/11 truth liars like Harrit, have fooled a fringe few who can't see Harrit's paper does not prove thermite was found in WTC dust. The big problem with Harrit's lie about thermite, the big clue, no steel was damaged by thermite or explosives.
 
I said
This is miles beyond their [the Truthers'] level of comprehension or even interest.

and they said
Even if you accept his unproven hypothesis that the proliferation of intact iron-rich microspheres were the result of welding and grinding that occurred 30 years ago, Greening's selective analysis fails to explain, or address, Dr. Harrit et als' observations that thermitic red chips pervade the 9/11 WTC dust.

And I was right. That proof came quickly.
 
Or the dust is most likely contaminated by multiple sources, like industrial paints on machinery or other sources some aluminum coatings and rust flakes can have high energy levels, such as nano Oxygen hydrogen composites.
 
Even if you accept his unproven hypothesis that the proliferation of intact iron-rich microspheres were the result of welding and grinding that occurred 30 years ago, Greening's selective analysis fails to explain, or address, Dr. Harrit et als' observations that thermitic red chips pervade the 9/11 WTC dust.
Or the dust is most likely contaminated by multiple sources, like industrial paints on machinery or other sources some aluminum coatings and rust flakes can have high energy levels, such as nano Oxygen hydrogen composites.

Contaminated dust?

The dust represents the amalgamation of the 9/11 WTC debris.

Of course it must have some contamination from local stirred up dust.

Given the proven thermitic nature of the red chips found in the 9/11 WTC dust, had Dr. Harrit et al only found those chips in a solitary sample of 9/11 WTC dust and not in their other three samples, it would have created quite a conundrum.

The fact is, they found thermitic red chips chips in all four samples (taken from four different locations), thus establishing their pervasive nature.

To date, no one has provided an alternative explanation for the ‘reduced’ iron microspheres produced by igniting those red chips that invalidates the finding of nano-thermite made by Dr. Harrit et al.
 
Given the proven thermitic nature of the red chips found in the 9/11 WTC dust, had Dr. Harrit et al only found those chips in a solitary sample of 9/11 WTC dust and not in their other three samples, it would have created quite a conundrum.

Given that the "thermitic nature" of these chips is not, in fact, proven, but disproven by the actual results published by Harrit et al (unless conservation of energy is disproven, possibly a slightly less parsimonious conclusion), all the above is moot; however;

The fact is, they found thermitic red chips chips in all four samples (taken from four different locations), thus establishing their pervasive nature.

Which is precisely what would have been expected from environmental contamination, which would not be expected to show particularly great variations between different locations in lower Manhattan. Sorry, but you're creating imaginary obstacles here.

To date, no one has provided an alternative explanation for the ‘reduced’ iron microspheres produced by igniting those red chips that invalidates the finding of nano-thermite made by Dr. Harrit et al.

Again, as the "finding" of nano-thermite invalidates itself, this is hardly necessary; two perfectly viable explanations are that the spheres were not produced by a reaction but were present in the as-collected dust (as indeed they were in the sample of dust analysed by Dr. Greening here) but that Harrit and his associates were insufficiently competent to detect them; or that they were already present, Harrit et al detected them, but chose not to report having done so, motivated by the intellectual dishonesty that may be clearly seen elsewhere in their paper (for example, in their conclusion that the reaction observed is a thermite reaction when it neither matches the DSC signal nor produces a total energy in the range physically possible from such a reaction).

Dave
 
I don't fully buy the welding/cutting/grinding hypothesis, or the screeching steel one, for these quantities. The fly ash explanation sounds more compelling, and I'm not sure it explains the amounts found, but the origin matters not: the lack of a proportionally equivalent amount of aluminium oxide plainly refutes the thermite hypothesis.

By proportionally equivalent I mean that the amount of iron spheres believed to come from a thermite reaction, should be accompanied by a proportional amount of aluminium oxide, the proportion defined by said reaction. That didn't happen.
 

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