France gets tough

[RandFan]

France ejects 12 Islamic 'preachers of hate'

The gulf between British and French treatment of preachers of hatred and violence was thrown sharply into focus yesterday when France announced the summary expulsion of a dozen Islamists between now and the end of August.

A tough new anti-terrorism package was unveiled by Nicolas Sarkozy, the interior minister and a popular centre-Right politician.


Nicolas Sarkozy: 'We have to act against radical preachers'
His proposals reflect French determination to act swiftly against extremists in defiance of the human rights lobby, which is noticeably less vocal in France than in Britain.

Imams and their followers who fuel anti-western feeling among impressionable young French Muslims will be rounded up and returned to their countries of origin, most commonly in France's case to its former north African colonies.

...

French ministers and commentators have long expressed exasperation at British handling of individuals who support terrorism, arguing that greater emphasis is being placed on their human rights rather than on security interests.

 

[BPSCG]

A tough new anti-terrorism package was unveiled by Nicolas Sarkozy, the interior minister and a popular centre-Right politician.

Now there's a nice French-sounding name for you...

Imams and their followers who fuel anti-western feeling among impressionable young French Muslims will be rounded up and returned to their countries of origin, most commonly in France's case to its former north African colonies.

Now this is interesting.

The supposed rationale for the Madrid bombings was that Spain was supporting the illegal, unjustified war to overthrow Saddam and the U.S. attempts to help Iraq establish government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

The supposed rationale for the London bombings was that Britain was supporting the illegal, unjustified war to overthrow Saddam and the U.S. attempts to help Iraq establish legitimate government.

And the jihadist hatred of the U.S. is supposdly fueled by the the illegal, unjustified war to overthrow Saddam and the U.S. attempts to help Iraq establish legitimate government.

Meanwhile, France did not just sit on the sidelines. It actively opposed the Iraq war and has barely lifted a finger to help restore legitimate government in its aftermath.

And yet, imams in France are still inciting murder.

Does anyone still doubt that the jihad is not against the U.S., but against western civilization?

Anyway, if this is a harbinger of things to come in France, it's nice to welcome them back to the fight.

 

[RandFan]

Meanwhile, France did not just sit on the sidelines. It actively opposed the Iraq war and has barely lifted a finger to help restore legitimate government in its aftermath.

And yet, imams in France are still inciting murder.

Does anyone still doubt that the jihad is not against the U.S., but against western civilization?

Anyway, if this is a harbinger of things to come in France, it's nice to welcome them back to the fight.

Someone noticed. There is hope for us yet.

 

[demon]

BPSCG:
"And yet, imams in France are still inciting murder."

The Telegraph report gives no indication of what the imams actually said. Where do you get that from?

 

[RandFan]

BPSCG:
"And yet, imams in France are still inciting murder."

The Telegraph report gives no indication of what the imams actually said. Where do you get that from?

Well, the report was clear enough that the French are under the impression that these individuals preach hate and violence. Would you agree with that?

 

[RandFan]

BPSCG:
"And yet, imams in France are still inciting murder."

The Telegraph report gives no indication of what the imams actually said. Where do you get that from?

BTW, thank you for the response.

 

[Orwell]

It's pretty simple actually, BPSCG!

You see, radical Islamists oppose anything that doesn't fit into their definition of Islam. So they preach against it. They're not much different than, I don't know, Jerry Falwell and other far-right preachers with their Christian values... But it is much easier for them to convince people to accept their ******** when their ******** seems to have a few elements of truth in it, even if their version of truth has been distorted out of recognition. Therefore, it is easier for them to convince a few young dumb martyr wanna-be's to blow themselves up in London, whereas it is probably harder to find cannon fodder compliant enough to do it in Paris and Toronto.

What was that comment on Sarkozy's name not sounding "french" about?

 

[Skeptic]

You see, radical Islamists oppose anything that doesn't fit into their definition of Islam. So they preach against it. They're not much different than, I don't know, Jerry Falwell and other far-right preachers with their Christian values...

The next time somebody blows himself up killing babies because Falwell told him to, call me.

You seem to view the problem with Islam in what it SHARES with Christianity. The real problem is what it is DIFFERENT from Christianity--the suicide-bomber militant violent conqeuring worldview. Which is not, perhaps, in theory different than Christianity... but worlds away in practice.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Anyway, if this is a harbinger of things to come in France, it's nice to welcome them back to the fight.

I think that is a bit of a misrepresentation of the French view and their attitudes. I would say if you look at France as a whole their society is even more evangelical about protecting "their way of life" then even the USAians are.

The French are passionate about being French, whether that is protecting their language (as they view it) or ensuring religion is not given special exemptions e.g. the recent banning of overtly religious symbols in state schools.

In some ways I've always admired the French and their very similarly (sometimes) opinionated cousins the USAians, it means both countries are willing to do what they believe is right for them no matter what others may think.

 

[Darat]

You see, radical Islamists oppose anything that doesn't fit into their definition of Islam. So they preach against it. They're not much different than, I don't know, Jerry Falwell and other far-right preachers with their Christian values...

The next time somebody blows himself up killing babies because Falwell told him to, call me.

You seem to view the problem with Islam in what it SHARES with Christianity. The real problem is what it is DIFFERENT from Christianity--the suicide-bomber militant violent conqeuring worldview. Which is not, perhaps, in theory different than Christianity... but worlds away in practice.

Yet the facts show are that suicide bombers can be Christians (i.e. Lebanese civil war).

 

[The idea]

Therefore, it is easier for them to convince a few young dumb martyr wanna-be's to blow themselves up in London, whereas it is probably harder to find cannon fodder compliant enough to do it in Paris and Toronto.

How did you get "therefore"? Perhaps you used an unstated assumption to the effect that martyr wanna-be's in Paris tend to have unlisted phone numbers, but martyr wanna-be's in London tend to have listed phone numbers. Therefore, those who seek cannon fodder by making thousands of phone calls to listed phone numbers can be expected to have more difficulty finding martyr wanna-be's in Paris than in London?

 

[Orwell]

You see, radical Islamists oppose anything that doesn't fit into their definition of Islam. So they preach against it. They're not much different than, I don't know, Jerry Falwell and other far-right preachers with their Christian values...

The next time somebody blows himself up killing babies because Falwell told him to, call me.

You seem to view the problem with Islam in what it SHARES with Christianity. The real problem is what it is DIFFERENT from Christianity--the suicide-bomber militant violent conqeuring worldview. Which is not, perhaps, in theory different than Christianity... but worlds away in practice.

And why's that? Why do Christian fanatics spend time campaigning against evolution instead of blowing themselves up along with anyone near by? Is it because they're somehow less kooky then their Islamist counterparts? Is Islam is inherently more violent then christianity? Could the political situation in the middle east have something to do with it? Why do you think they blow themselves up, Skeptic?

 

[Orwell]

How did you get "therefore"? Perhaps you used an unstated assumption to the effect that martyr wanna-be's in Paris tend to have unlisted phone numbers, but martyr wanna-be's in London tend to have listed phone numbers. Therefore, those who seek cannon fodder by making thousands of phone calls to listed phone numbers can be expected to have more difficulty finding martyr wanna-be's in Paris than in London?

Aw come on, get serious would you?

 

[Darat]

How did you get "therefore"? Perhaps you used an unstated assumption to the effect that martyr wanna-be's in Paris tend to have unlisted phone numbers, but martyr wanna-be's in London tend to have listed phone numbers. Therefore, those who seek cannon fodder by making thousands of phone calls to listed phone numbers can be expected to have more difficulty finding martyr wanna-be's in Paris than in London?

I think he might be referring to the fact that someone trying to recruit a British person to become a suicide bomber can point out the British involvement in Iraq and point out the undeniable civilian causalities and some of the terrible mistakes that have been made by the British. Therefore by the perverse reasoning they use convince someone that there are no “innocent” British people since we are all complicit in the acts done in our name. Whereas in France they can't say the French people are complicate in any deaths since everyone is aware that the French opposed the actions taken by the collation every step along the way.

 

[BPSCG]

BPSCG:
"And yet, imams in France are still inciting murder."

The Telegraph report gives no indication of what the imams actually said. Where do you get that from?

I'm sorry; you're right. There's no actual quotation of anything any imam actually said.

I'm sure the French are overreacting and that they are expelling the the teachers of the "religion of peace" for inciting to jaywalking and sticking bubblegum under the seats at movie theaters.

 

[Orwell]

I should point out that saying "that Islam is DIFFERENT from Christianity--the suicide-bomber militant violent conqeuring worldview" explain bupkiss. Why is the "the suicide-bomber militant violent conquering worldview" still so persistent among so many Muslims, while most Christian have abandoned it? Since I don't believe that it's due to something in middle eastern genes, I think that the present political and social conditions of the Middle East must have something to do with it.

 

[Orwell]

I think he might be referring to the fact that someone trying to recruit a British person to become a suicide bomber can point out the British involvement in Iraq and point out the undeniable civilian causalities and some of the terrible mistakes that have been made by the British. Therefore by the perverse reasoning they use convince someone that there are no “innocent” British people since we are all complicit in the acts done in our name. Whereas in France they can't say the French people are complicate in any deaths since everyone is aware that the French opposed the actions taken by the collation every step along the way.

Thank you Darat!

It seems like I didn't express myself with enough clarity...

 

[BPSCG]

You see, radical Islamists oppose anything that doesn't fit into their definition of Islam. So they preach against it. They're not much different than, I don't know, Jerry Falwell and other far-right preachers with their Christian values... But it is much easier for them to convince people to accept their ******** when their ******** seems to have a few elements of truth in it, even if their version of truth has been distorted out of recognition. Therefore, it is easier for them to convince a few young dumb martyr wanna-be's to blow themselves up in London, whereas it is probably harder to find cannon fodder compliant enough to do it in Paris and Toronto.

Sorry, I've read this about three or four times and it still doesn't make any sense.

What was that comment on Sarkozy's name not sounding "french" about?

Appears to be Hungarian. Not saying he isn't French, just that it's kind of an unusual-sounding name for a Frenchman.

BTW, how come "Frenchman" or "Englishman" isn't racist or anything, but "Chinaman" is?

 

[Mycroft]

You see, radical Islamists oppose anything that doesn't fit into their definition of Islam. So they preach against it. They're not much different than, I don't know, Jerry Falwell and other far-right preachers with their Christian values...

The next time somebody blows himself up killing babies because Falwell told him to, call me.

You seem to view the problem with Islam in what it SHARES with Christianity. The real problem is what it is DIFFERENT from Christianity--the suicide-bomber militant violent conqeuring worldview. Which is not, perhaps, in theory different than Christianity... but worlds away in practice.

Exactly. Why is this obvious truth so hard for some to understand?

It's easy to point out similarities between Islamic extremism and Christian extremism, but the important difference is in their implementation. One kills, the other doesn't. At least not within recent history.

Further, if we were to demonstrate equivalence, it wouldn't demonstrate how harmless Islam is, but how dangerous Christianity is.

 

[Orwell]

Sorry, I've read this about three or four times and it still doesn't make any sense.
Appears to be Hungarian. Not saying he isn't French, just that it's kind of an unusual-sounding name for a Frenchman.

BTW, how come "Frenchman" or "Englishman" isn't racist or anything, but "Chinaman" is?

Yeah, he's the son of Hungarian immigrants.