For a war yet against a draft?

[Tmy]

I dont get how people can be for the Iraq war and then freak out whenever someone brings up the draft.

Actually I do get it, people are OK with the war cause it has no effect on their lives. They dont particuarly care about the soilders fighting there, after all "they signed up."

Can you wave the moral war flag when you disapprove ofa draft? If its morally correct, a draft shouldnt sway your opinion.

 

[TragicMonkey]

If you're suggesting that being in favor of a war yet opposing a draft is inconsistent, then wouldn't consistency mean always opposing all wars? There doesn't seem to be much point in having a professional military if every war morally requires a draft.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

They are two different things and I see no reason why one's opinion on the one should determine one's opinion on the other. I see no reason why one cannot be for the war, but feel that an all volunteer army is sufficient to fight it. Or to feel that the war is justified but forcing someone to fight it that did not volunteer is not justified.

Mind you, I am against the war, but I don't see the connection you are making.

 

[Tmy]

If its "moral" then its right or wrong.? why should a draft matter, other than to make the stakes personally higher.


Who would ever say 'Im up for defeating Hiter, but not if there was a draft!"

 

[Benguin]

A lot of military figures are against conscription and national service, their reason being they only want soldiers who have chosen to be there and are willing to train, follow orders, etc.

Conscripted soldiers are often sited as one of the big military problems in conflicts like Vietnam, Afghanistan (Soviet conflict) and Chechnaya.

I suppose there comes a point where a country is left with no choice, but whatever that point is I think it is in the judgement of military commanders only.

I do think, however, if you supported a conflict you could not oppose being asked to participate should that day come.

 

[Tmy]

They are two different things and I see no reason why one's opinion on the one should determine one's opinion on the other. I see no reason why one cannot be for the war, but feel that an all volunteer army is sufficient to fight it. Or to feel that the war is justified but forcing someone to fight it that did not volunteer is not justified.

Mind you, I am against the war, but I don't see the connection you are making.

Either you need a draft or not. It shouldnt be a poltical decison, it shoudl be a practicle decision.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

If its "moral" then its right or wrong.? why should a draft matter, other than to make the stakes personally higher.


Who would ever say 'Im up for defeating Hiter, but not if there was a draft!"

Once again there isn't necessarily a connection. One could easily say "Defeating Hitler is morally right" and "Forcing a person to put themselves in harms way against their will is wrong" without contradicting oneself. Therefore saying "Im up for defeating Hiter, but not if there was a draft!" is in no way morally contradictory.

One could also take a more nuanced view and feel that the war is right , and a draft is okay if that's what it takes, but that a draft is not necessary at this point, and thus be for the war but against a draft.

 

[Tony]

Either you need a draft or not. It shouldnt be a poltical decison, it shoudl be a practicle decision.

Either you need slavery or not. It shouldn't be a political decision; it should be a practical decision.


After reading that sentence, can you see how someone would be against the draft but for the war? Slavery, like the draft isn't something you "need". It's something you force on others because you are either too lazy or cheap to do what's right.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Either you need a draft or not. It shouldnt be a poltical decison, it shoudl be a practicle decision.

What Benguin just said.

Plus it is posible that someone opposing the draft right now, could just feel it to be unnecessary right now.

 

[Tmy]

Either you have the troops to run Iraq or you dont. Then your options are to get more troops or pull back. You can get troops im many ways, draft being one of them.

Evryone seems to think that wishing you have enough miltary men is all you need to do.

Dont you think its reckless for the candidates to say "There will be no draft." How do they know they wont need it.

 

[Tony]

Either you have the troops to run Iraq or you dont. Then your options are to get more troops or pull back. You can get troops im many ways, draft being one of them.

Yeah, and slavery is another way to get workers and rape is another way to get sex.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Either you have the troops to run Iraq or you dont. Then your options are to get more troops or pull back. You can get troops im many ways, draft being one of them.

Evryone seems to think that wishing you have enough miltary men is all you need to do.

Dont you think its reckless for the candidates to say "There will be no draft." How do they know they wont need it.

A draft maybe ONE way of getting more troops but it isn't the only way. If they find it to be a way that causes more problems than it solves (which a draft often does even under the best of circumstances, the draft invoked during the Civil War caused riots that made the 60's anti-war protests look like mild complaining) then I am sure that politicians will exhaust every other otion first.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Dont you think its reckless for the candidates to say "There will be no draft." How do they know they wont need it.

You're not suggesting that a politician would lie, are you? While running for president? Such a thing has never occurred before, and never will.

Seriously, if it turns out Iraq would require a draft, I think it's more likely that the US would simply pull out entirely. Instituting a draft would be political suicide for whichever party proposed it.

 

[shanek]

Wars are sometimes justified. Slavery never is.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Another way to look at it is to put it in a less emotional arena than The War.

Many people in the country are all for improving the quality of health care that people receive. One problem is a shortage of qualified nurses. So would the government be justified in drafting nurses? In effect saying "I don't care that you wanted to go to college to be an architect, you are becoming a nurse whether you like it or not". Would people who favor improved health care but would be opposed to such a program be hypocrites? Would people be wrong for having a cow if such a program were suggested?

I don't think so. So now can you see why people can be in favor of the war but opposed to the draft, TMY?

 

[c0rbin]

If its "moral" then its right or wrong.? why should a draft matter, other than to make the stakes personally higher.


Who would ever say 'Im up for defeating Hiter, but not if there was a draft!"

I think you just torpedoed your own thread, dude.

 

[Chaos]

Another way to look at it is to put it in a less emotional arena than The War.

Many people in the country are all for improving the quality of health care that people receive. One problem is a shortage of qualified nurses. So would the government be justified in drafting nurses? In effect saying "I don't care that you wanted to go to college to be an architect, you are becoming a nurse whether you like it or not". Would people who favor improved health care but would be opposed to such a program be hypocrites? Would people be wrong for having a cow if such a program were suggested?

I don't think so. So now can you see why people can be in favor of the war but opposed to the draft, TMY?

In Germany, draftees who don´t want to do military service can do civilian service, which can consist of tasks like caring for elderly people in various degrees of home care. Other possibilities are conducting First Aid training, driving disabled children to school and back, working in a nursing homes or in school with disabled children, and many other jobs.
In my books this comes pretty close to drafting nurses, and it is generally accepted among the population - even more so than the draft itself. It is probably the most important reason why the draft wasn´t abolished after the end of the cold war.

Our draft was orginially established because we had a few million Russian soldiers sitting right across our eastern border, and somebody had to hold them off until the real (US, UK etc.) soldiers arrived.
The civilians service option was included because, during the Nazi regime, members of some religious groups, including Jehova´s Witnesses, were persecuted and killed for refusing to do military service; giving such people (and others who didn´t want to be soldiers) this civilian option was the government´s way to honor that suffering and death. (Which is probably the only good thing that has ever come of Jehova´s Witnesses)

 

[Benguin]

Either you have the troops to run Iraq or you dont. Then your options are to get more troops or pull back. You can get troops im many ways, draft being one of them.

Evryone seems to think that wishing you have enough miltary men is all you need to do.

I think maybe you need to distinguish between on opinion on
a) whether or not drafts are right,
b) if they are necessary at x point in time
c) whether 'an individual' would pony up to his responsibility when called.

I'd like to think my answer to (c) would be yes whether I not I agreed with the specifics of a conflict when it was initiated as it is unlikely the choice would come until the gates of hell had opened. There is, after all, a responsibility to defend one's country.

I'd like to think I would say yes (and insist, inspite of a whole plethora of health reasons that would probably exclude me), with apprehension and regret, however I am fortunate (as are nearly all of us) in never having faced that dilemma.

Dont you think its reckless for the candidates to say "There will be no draft." How do they know they wont need it.

I agree absolutely. Politicians may start the wars, as is their right and duty, however they must stay out of running them unless they are just calling them off.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

In Germany, draftees who don´t want to do military service can do civilian service, which can consist of tasks like caring for elderly people in various degrees of home care. Other possibilities are conducting First Aid training, driving disabled children to school and back, working in a nursing homes or in school with disabled children, and many other jobs.
In my books this comes pretty close to drafting nurses, and it is generally accepted among the population - even more so than the draft itself. It is probably the most important reason why the draft wasn´t abolished after the end of the cold war.

Our draft was orginially established because we had a few million Russian soldiers sitting right across our eastern border, and somebody had to hold them off until the real (US, UK etc.) soldiers arrived.
The civilians service option was included because, during the Nazi regime, members of some religious groups, including Jehova´s Witnesses, were persecuted and killed for refusing to do military service; giving such people (and others who didn´t want to be soldiers) this civilian option was the government´s way to honor that suffering and death. (Which is probably the only good thing that has ever come of Jehova´s Witnesses)

Thoughit doesn't sound as widespread, I know back when we had a draft, one could apply for 'Conscientious Objector' status and (if I recall correctly, it ahs been a long time since I looked into this) and one would then get put to work doing similar tasks. It was never popular, for a variety of reasons, though.

I am curious though, does your draft alternative go by the skills the person already has? I mean if the person has training as a nurse, they get put to work as a nurse, if they are already trained to drive a bus, they get put to work driving disabled children, etc? Or is there some sort of choice as to what you go into (i.e. a person doesn't think they can handle cleaning bedpans but has no problem doing a lot of driving, so he can opt to drive the children rather than be a nurse)? If so I don't think it's quite the same thing, but I see your point regardless.

 

[glsunder]

Can you be for a draft and against taxes or social programs? Can you be for forcing people to kill while not for forcing people to help others? Do some people deserve to die more than others deserve to eat?