Food

[schlitt]

Hey all,

I am wondering if someone can shed some light on the science behind taste and food preference.

I have been of the belief for a long time that any person can like any food, it is just a matter of conditioning. Here are a few simple examples which seem to show this;

- Different cultures enjoy different foods which can taste repulsive to other cultures.

- Many people acquire tastes for things they do not like initially.

- People can be put off a food for life if they over-indulge on an occasion.

To me it seems as if the taste receptors carry the information about what type of taste the food is to the brain for analysis. It is then determined whether the food should be beneficial to consume.
We would have developed a sense of what should be nutritious though evolution, which makes things which contain taste properties similar to poisons and other un-nutritious compounds taste bad. So it is really a case of conditioning ourselves positively to a type of taste and from that point on we can enjoy it.

Now I may be WAY off on this, so i am hoping someone who has knowledge of this can shed some light on it for me

I consider myself a good example of my "anyone can like anything" hypothesis.
When i was in my teenage years, i made a concious decision to try and like every type of food available, i have reached a stage where i cannot think of a single food i have tried, that i do not like (when cooked well). There were a few that i had to struggle with for a while, but eventually i acquired the taste for them (brussel sprouts was the hardest).

Over the past few years i have been testing out my theory with my friends and partner. So far i have managed to make 5 of my friends who were die hard blue cheese haters, into blue cheese lovers. My partner used to be extremely fussy, yet now she is approaching the same kind of blanket acceptance of all food as me.

So, apologies if this seems a little irrelevant for this discussion board, but i am just interested to get some opinions of the science behind taste perception. Any thoughts appreciated

 

[Cuddles]

To me it seems as if the taste receptors carry the information about what type of taste the food is to the brain for analysis. It is then determined whether the food should be beneficial to consume.
We would have developed a sense of what should be nutritious though evolution, which makes things which contain taste properties similar to poisons and other un-nutritious compounds taste bad. So it is really a case of conditioning ourselves positively to a type of taste and from that point on we can enjoy it.

This is pretty much what I assume to be the case. If you eat something lots without getting ill, your body will assume it is not bad for you. If you eat something that your body doesn't recognise it will tend to err on the side of caution, so you may not like it at first, or ever.

Of course, there are also built in preferences for some kinds of food and dislike for others and it may be difficult or impossible to overcome them. Within certain limits though, I think, in my completely unqualified opinion, that you are probably right.

I think I must be rather like your partner. I used to be a very ussy eater, but I've got used to eating whatever is put in front of me out of politeness (and pressure from parents of course ) and now I will eat pretty much anything. However, I can't see the point in purposely training yourself to like something. There is plenty of food and drink that I like, so why waste time trying to like something else when I could be enjoying myself right now?

 

[schlitt]

However, I can't see the point in purposely training yourself to like something. There is plenty of food and drink that I like, so why waste time trying to like something else when I could be enjoying myself right now?

I can understand this centiment, but i will say that oddly enough it seems to be the acquired tastes which end up bringing the most pleasure in my experience. (At least this is the case with the examples i have seen though myself, friends and partner)
Things such as; pungent cheeses, olives, red wine, shellfish.

 

[fuelair]

Hey all,

I am wondering if someone can shed some light on the science behind taste and food preference.

I have been of the belief for a long time that any person can like any food, it is just a matter of conditioning. Here are a few simple examples which seem to show this;

- Different cultures enjoy different foods which can taste repulsive to other cultures.

- Many people acquire tastes for things they do not like initially.

- People can be put off a food for life if they over-indulge on an occasion.

To me it seems as if the taste receptors carry the information about what type of taste the food is to the brain for analysis. It is then determined whether the food should be beneficial to consume.
We would have developed a sense of what should be nutritious though evolution, which makes things which contain taste properties similar to poisons and other un-nutritious compounds taste bad. So it is really a case of conditioning ourselves positively to a type of taste and from that point on we can enjoy it.

Now I may be WAY off on this, so i am hoping someone who has knowledge of this can shed some light on it for me

I consider myself a good example of my "anyone can like anything" hypothesis.
When i was in my teenage years, i made a concious decision to try and like every type of food available, i have reached a stage where i cannot think of a single food i have tried, that i do not like (when cooked well). There were a few that i had to struggle with for a while, but eventually i acquired the taste for them (brussel sprouts was the hardest).

Over the past few years i have been testing out my theory with my friends and partner. So far i have managed to make 5 of my friends who were die hard blue cheese haters, into blue cheese lovers. My partner used to be extremely fussy, yet now she is approaching the same kind of blanket acceptance of all food as me.

So, apologies if this seems a little irrelevant for this discussion board, but i am just interested to get some opinions of the science behind taste perception. Any thoughts appreciated

Actually, many factors apply to how people perceive the taste of things - some are genetic (there are certain chemicals some people can taste - certain of those very negative and strong - and others cannot. Some chemicals affect people differently in terms of the actual tast. How well the nose/olfactory nerves work affects taste dramatically. Short version - it is unlikely two people taste the same food exactly the same way (and the differences may be very large). My personal belief is that you are wrong on this. Oh, almost forgot - aging also changes taste factors. By the by, gorgonzola fine but still not happy with Blue/Bleu. And Brussels Sprouts are definitly out.

 

[schlitt]

Actually, many factors apply to how people perceive the taste of things - some are genetic (there are certain chemicals some people can taste - certain of those very negative and strong - and others cannot. Some chemicals affect people differently in terms of the actual tast. How well the nose/olfactory nerves work affects taste dramatically. Short version - it is unlikely two people taste the same food exactly the same way (and the differences may be very large).

But would it still not come down to positive or negative conditioning to these factors? The fact that people would experience taste differently should be irrelevant? - In the same kind of way that your yellow may be my pink, but we are both conditioned to call it yellow.

 

[fuelair]

But would it still not come down to positive or negative conditioning to these factors? The fact that people would experience taste differently should be irrelevant? - In the same kind of way that your yellow may be my pink, but we are both conditioned to call it yellow.

Actually, based on testing unless you are color blind or have had big deal brain damage, your yellow and mine are the same. The testing, at a minimum takes at least two forms: pure physics (response to specific wavelengths) and psychological/perception (response to, say, items placed under color tiles - with rotation of tiles in a set and tiles used over the entire process).
Because taste involves two systems - in short version tongue and nose - and these involve different sets of nerves, variation in number of taste receptors, exact chemistry of/between saliva, mouth bacteria present - and quantities present, illness, genetics, etc.

I remain thoroughly unconvinced.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Actually, based on testing unless you are color blind or have had big deal brain damage, your yellow and mine are the same. The testing, at a minimum takes at least two forms: pure physics (response to specific wavelengths) and psychological/perception (response to, say, items placed under color tiles - with rotation of tiles in a set and tiles used over the entire process).

Can you expand or link? I have always wandered how we know that what I see as green is not what someone else sees as red but with a different label.

Because taste involves two systems - in short version tongue and nose - and these involve different sets of nerves, variation in number of taste receptors, exact chemistry of/between saliva, mouth bacteria present - and quantities present, illness, genetics, etc.

I remain thoroughly unconvinced.

Was at a cookery class where they did a great demonstration of how important the nose is in taste - take a coriander leaf and hold your nose tightly shut, put it in your mouth and chew for a while, then release your nose.

 

[Schneibster]

As far as seeing, you actually only see three colors, and black-and-white.

You have two types of sensors in your retina: rods and cones. The cones are color-sensitive,and there are three types: red, green, and blue. These correspond to the low, middle, and high frequency portions of the visible light spectrum, respectively. If you see color, you see it with your cones. The cones use photosensitive dyes for the three colors, and everybody's eyes use the same dyes, so everybody sees the same colors.

The rods are also sensitive to green, but their bandwidth is much wider; unlike the green cones, the rods have significant response to blue and red, though not as strong as to green. But more importantly, the rods are much more sensitive than the cones are. They can change to a different chemistry that permits extreme sensitivity to light. This is called "scotopic vision."

There are only a few foods I hate, but they are, to me, simply not food. Anything seasoned with nutmeg is poisonous as far as I am concerned. I can smell it ten feet away and will not touch it. Cow liver (and curiously, as far as I've been able to tell, ONLY cow liver- I like liverwurst, braunschweiger, and pate, as well as chicken livers) is NOT FOOD. The large squashes (acorn and spaghetti- and again, only them, I like crookneck yellow squash, zucchini, and dollar squash just fine) are NOT FOOD. I'll eat just about any cheese but Swiss Gruyere, which smells like feet and tastes to match; and again, it's ONLY the Swiss variety I don't like, I like Comte, which is French Gruyere, just fine. I will not eat natto; sushi is fine, even advanced stuff like uni and tako, but I smell natto and my throat closes up. It's NOT FOOD. So there's some empirical data for you. Make of it what you will.

 

[roger]

If your hypothesis is correct, then you should be able to turn your least favorite food into your most favorite, and vice versa.

For example, molten chocolate and coffee flavors both do it for me. Well executed, I can feel huge washes of endorphins, feel weak in my seat, etc. In contrast, I am simply puzzled as to why people like fish, and eating something like scallops sometimes causing physical retching movements.

I don't see any way that I could ever experience fish in any way close to how I experience hot, melted chocolate oozing out of a cake.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

If your hypothesis is correct, then you should be able to turn your least favorite food into your most favorite, and vice versa.

For example, molten chocolate and coffee flavors both do it for me. Well executed, I can feel huge washes of endorphins, feel weak in my seat, etc. In contrast, I am simply puzzled as to why people like fish, and eating something like scallops sometimes causing physical retching movements.

I don't see any way that I could ever experience fish in any way close to how I experience hot, melted chocolate oozing out of a cake.

Give me a well cooked scallop (or a raw one if they are very fresh) over chocolate cake any day of the week.

 

[Rob Lister]

rotten chicken is my favorite. Buy a pack of chicken breasts and let them sit on your counter for at least three days. Then bread them and bake them.

ummmmm.........tasty.

 

[roger]

Give me a well cooked scallop (or a raw one if they are very fresh) over chocolate cake any day of the week.

Right - we each have different innate tastes. I remember at the Bodies exhibition there was a placard stating we develop our preferences for salt vs sweet very early. I'm a "sweet" person. Don't see the point in salt, for the most part.
Nothing will change that as far as I am aware, though I can certainly learn to tolerate foods, and develop tastes for others.

 

[schlitt]

If your hypothesis is correct, then you should be able to turn your least favorite food into your most favorite, and vice versa.

Yep, i have seen this happen with blue cheese a few times now.
Olives are another food which people often HATE then end up loving, given the correct circumstances.

 

[DavidS]

An Epistemological Nightmare

Actually, based on testing unless you are color blind or have had big deal brain damage, your yellow and mine are the same.

Bah! Anybody can do yellow. Tackle red for a real challenge.

 

[schlitt]

Regarding the color scenario. It seems it would be impossible to tell how people view colors. The light hitting your retina would be the same, therefore what you have learnt is the name for that colour would always be the same response from anyone (unless colorblind). However if my brain interpreted the light frequency we know as red, to look different to the way your brain interpreted it, we could see colors entirely differently, and never know.
If there is some way to prove this is not possible, can you please give me an explanation, because i have often wondered this

 

[Modified]

Regarding the color scenario. It seems it would be impossible to tell how people view colors. The light hitting your retina would be the same, therefore what you have learnt is the name for that colour would always be the same response from anyone (unless colorblind). However if my brain interpreted the light frequency we know as red, to look different to the way your brain interpreted it, we could see colors entirely differently, and never know.
If there is some way to prove this is not possible, can you please give me an explanation, because i have often wondered this

What do you mean by "see differently". I think you are making the mistake of adding a little man inside the brain.

 

[schlitt]

What do you mean by "see differently". I think you are making the mistake of adding a little man inside the brain.

I mean the final construct the brain generates that is presented as vision. After it has gone through the mechanics of the eyes which essentially gather the data to present to the brain. How do i know that my brain has constructed the same vision as you? If my final visual construct of the colour red was different to yours, it would not matter, and we would never know... when asked, "what is the name for this color?" we would both answer red, because we have learned that is the name for that particular light frequency.

 

[Modified]

I mean the final construct the brain generates that is presented as vision. After it has gone through the mechanics of the eyes which essentially gather the data to present to the brain. How do i know that my brain has constructed the same vision as you? If my final visual construct of the colour red was different to yours, it would not matter, and we would never know... when asked, "what it the name for this color?" we would both answer red, because we have learned that is the name for that particular light frequency.

But no two brains are exactly identical, so by that definition all of us perceive colors differently. I still think you are adding a "brain pilot". If two people approximately agree on what colors appear identical (any number of spectral profiles map to what we perceive as a single color), have approximately the same color discrimination abilities, etc., then I would say they both see "the same yellow", regardless of their exact brain organization.

 

[fuelair]

Right - we each have different innate tastes. I remember at the Bodies exhibition there was a placard stating we develop our preferences for salt vs sweet very early. I'm a "sweet" person. Don't see the point in salt, for the most part.
Nothing will change that as far as I am aware, though I can certainly learn to tolerate foods, and develop tastes for others.

Interestingly, my wife and I are neither salt or sweet people - we both like alternating between them.

 

[schlitt]

But no two brains are exactly identical, so by that definition all of us perceive colors differently. I still think you are adding a "brain pilot". If two people approximately agree on what colors appear identical (any number of spectral profiles map to what we perceive as a single color), have approximately the same color discrimination abilities, etc., then I would say they both see "the same yellow", regardless of their exact brain organization.

I agree with what you are saying, people will always call yellow, yellow. But the point is since everyones brain is different, your yellow could look to me like your green does. But i would never know what your yellow or green look like, it does not matter, i identify the color spectrums identically to you, because i have learnt the names for that color spectrum just as you have.

The reason i used this analogy with food was; people are pointing out that the way we taste varies greatly from person, but even if this were the case, i beleive the brain's response of whether to like or dislike something, comes down to its conditioned response of whether or not it identifies the percieved taste as beneficial to ongoing existence. And i believe this response is something that can be changed through conditioning.
So, really the color analogy is a fairly poor choice in this occaision, since there would be no point in reconditioning a persons response to which color is which, but i think it illustrates the point at least somewhat that internal brain differences can be irrelevant with conditioning.