FLT 77 Flight Recorder Data - Pilots for Truth

rsalinger

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I hope these questions are different enough from what's already been posted here to get some good answers. I am new to the JREF forum so my search skills by still need to improve.

1. On the Pilots for Truth forum they have a post (can't post URL's yet)
from February of 2007 in which Rob Balsamo claims to have deciphered the raw FDR data. It shows that two seconds before impact (his analysis) the aircraft was at 288 feet. I can't work out whether there's anything wrong with this analysis (beyond wondering how accurate the translation is from radar altimeter to FDR format to engineering measure (feet i this case)). Comments please.

2. In reading through a lot of old posts here I have the impression that the original csv file which I have is not considered as being usable because the times shown are the time stamp from within the flight recorder rather than the time stamp of the observation. (I know it's a simplification). Are there other reasons for not trusting the numbers - calibration for example?

3. What is the accuracy of this kind of data? I'm trying to work out whether the use of a 12 bit word with some bits used for error correction (256 words per second as I read the specifications) doesn't inherently mean a reading can be easily of by say 100 feet when you could have a value from 0 - 40000. I have the feeling that these readouts cannot be used in isolation partly for this reason as well as the time delay possible. Can anyone comment.

I'm trying to get educated. If someone has threads which will give me some answers, please shoot them over to me.
 
The one thing you need to keep in mind as you examine the technical minutiae is that the FDR Data is NOT NEEDED to know that AA77 crashed into the Pentagon. There is a mountain of evidence that it did.
 
1) The FDR data can be several seconds behind the time stamp. Balsamo originally used the pressure altitude which is certainly not meant to work properly at 400 MPH AND at low altitude and is useless.

2) There will be an inherent +/- error in all measurements. The VOR/DME data for instance which Balsamo oddly seems to ignore anyway.

3) See slayhamlet's link
 
rsalinger said:
I hope these questions are different enough from what's already been posted here to get some good answers. I am new to the JREF forum so my search skills by still need to improve.

1. On the Pilots for Truth forum they have a post (can't post URL's yet)
from February of 2007 in which Rob Balsamo claims to have deciphered the raw FDR data. It shows that two seconds before impact (his analysis) the aircraft was at 288 feet. I can't work out whether there's anything wrong with this analysis (beyond wondering how accurate the translation is from radar altimeter to FDR format to engineering measure (feet i this case)). Comments please.

2. In reading through a lot of old posts here I have the impression that the original csv file which I have is not considered as being usable because the times shown are the time stamp from within the flight recorder rather than the time stamp of the observation. (I know it's a simplification). Are there other reasons for not trusting the numbers - calibration for example?

3. What is the accuracy of this kind of data? I'm trying to work out whether the use of a 12 bit word with some bits used for error correction (256 words per second as I read the specifications) doesn't inherently mean a reading can be easily of by say 100 feet when you could have a value from 0 - 40000. I have the feeling that these readouts cannot be used in isolation partly for this reason as well as the time delay possible. Can anyone comment.

I'm trying to get educated. If someone has threads which will give me some answers, please shoot them over to me.
Click to expand...
There are 4 or more seconds not on the final storage chip! The plane is 2800 feet or so from the Pentagon when the survivable chip data stops.

The pipeline is running at the bits per second, that is one second of data!

The data confirms that the FDR was 77, there are over 24 hours of flight data from previous flights, so all the implications of BS by p4t is false. P4t have the data to prove this.
 
Reheat said:
The one thing you need to keep in mind as you examine the technical minutiae is that the FDR Data is NOT NEEDED to know that AA77 crashed into the Pentagon. There is a mountain of evidence that it did.
Click to expand...

Not to mention no evidence at all that something other than a large fast object hit the Pentagon, not a missile and no bombs either in or outside the building.

For instance, a bomb inside the building would require that the 100 feet of missing ground floor wall be strewn about in front of the building and a bomb just outside the building could not have moved the generator towards the building and could not also confine its effects to the ground floor wall in a 100 foot line. Instead, the damage to the building mimics what one would expect from impact of a 100 foot wide fast projectile.
 
One might also consider the pure, unadulterated USDA Prime insanity of using the data from an aircraft flight data recorder found in the wreckage at the Pentagon to "prove" that the aircraft it was installed in didn't hit the Pentagon.

Or the notion that if the NWO has it together to plant all that aircraft debris undetected under the noses of a large number of onlookers, and has included an FDR loaded with faked data, they would fake the data in such a way as to prove the plane didn't hit the Pentagon.
 
ktesibios said:
One might also consider the pure, unadulterated USDA Prime insanity of using the data from an aircraft flight data recorder found in the wreckage at the Pentagon to "prove" that the aircraft it was installed in didn't hit the Pentagon.

Or the notion that if the NWO has it together to plant all that aircraft debris undetected under the noses of a large number of onlookers, and has included an FDR loaded with faked data, they would fake the data in such a way as to prove the plane didn't hit the Pentagon.
Click to expand...
Hey, remember that Balsamo is the one who posited that the Pentagon was attacked by a MOAB dropped from the C-130 overhead, while flight 77 skimmed over the Pentagon, made a "hard left," and escaped up the Potomac. He's the Judy Wood of the air.
 
I read the material you all kindly posted but I don't think it fully answers my question, so I want to rephrase.

Before I do, I acknowledge that there's a ton of other evidence, but most folks who think there was "no plane" have focused on this item as conclusive scientific proof that either the recording was faked or was from a different aircraft.

My question remains - is any official information regarding the actual accuracy of the altitude data as found in a flight recorder. As a corollary, is there any information regarding how that data might be affected by speed or altitude that's both authoritative and in the public domain?
 
rsalinger, if I can ask a question, if what Rob Balsamo says about the FDR is correct, what do you think that indicates about what happened at the Pentagon? In particular, how do you think that the FDR came to be found in the wreckage?
 
Just for the heck of it, check out the response by Rob to my "exposed" entry on him.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=86434&sid=efd9decfb2b9e7b9cdae80e4b513fab7#86434

Balsamo said:
We never claimed that the information "proves" anything and have stated as such on many radio/television interviews. What we do "claim" is that the data provided by the govt does not support the govt story of an impact with the pentagon.
Click to expand...

Ok, you say that the data does not support the hit, but you say the information proves nothing? Whut?

And of course the usual, commenting my website entry:
Folks, the above tactic is typical of govt loyalists and apologists. Spin. obfuscation, strawman arguments and flat out lies to distract you from the real truth.
Click to expand...
 
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Thanks ref. I get it now. All Balsamo is saying is that the FDR doesn't equal the exact flight description contained in the video animation of the crash published by the NTSB. Of course, without any information as to FDR accuracy from anywhere, that's no indication of anything sinister. No one in the US government ever said (?) that it would dovetail to their video precisely.

(Where I think Rob may be out of line is in the video where they clearly cite these discrepancies as "evidence" for a conspiracy. The reason I wanted the information on how accurate FDR data is was that it seems to me that much of this debate is emotionally charged.)

Emotions are great and I have some myself. I'd like to be able to discuss this with anyone I encounter with specific facts and figures. I keep reading statements like "there wasn't enough wreckage", when there is no standard measure for how much airplane wreckage needs to be found to constitute proof that an airplane crashed under a specific set of circumstances. Maybe it's just the way I think, but I've always found avoiding ad hominen attacks and trying to get to the heart of the dispute is the best way to get people to move from one side of the argument to the other. So, in this case, a word from the manufacturer of the hardware/software system about it's accuracy would be useful.

Anyone know why I can't post URL's?
 
rsalinger said:
My question remains - is any official information regarding the actual accuracy of the altitude data as found in a flight recorder.
Click to expand...

The closest thing you'll get is the official speed/altitudes these items are checked in and what errors are expected.

The conditions on 9/11 were far beyond any combination of speed/altitude that anyone does any testing, certifying, etc, etc.

As a corollary, is there any information regarding how that data might be affected by speed or altitude that's both authoritative and in the public domain?
Click to expand...

Not really. All we really know is that the altimeter was operating way beyond what it's tested for.
 
rsalinger said:
1. On the Pilots for Truth forum they have a post (can't post URL's yet)
from February of 2007 in which Rob Balsamo claims to have deciphered the raw FDR data. It shows that two seconds before impact (his analysis) the aircraft was at 288 feet. I can't work out whether there's anything wrong with this analysis (beyond wondering how accurate the translation is from radar altimeter to FDR format to engineering measure (feet i this case)). Comments please.
Click to expand...

Balasamo seems to focus on debunker arguments related to altimeter lag. He ignores the fact that the data he's looking at appears to be much earlier than he claims.

2. In reading through a lot of old posts here I have the impression that the original csv file which I have is not considered as being usable because the times shown are the time stamp from within the flight recorder rather than the time stamp of the observation. (I know it's a simplification). Are there other reasons for not trusting the numbers - calibration for example?
Click to expand...

Yes, calibration is an issue. Time is the bigger one, though.

3. What is the accuracy of this kind of data? I'm trying to work out whether the use of a 12 bit word with some bits used for error correction (256 words per second as I read the specifications) doesn't inherently mean a reading can be easily of by say 100 feet when you could have a value from 0 - 40000. I have the feeling that these readouts cannot be used in isolation partly for this reason as well as the time delay possible. Can anyone comment.
Click to expand...

I don't know the answer to this question. I'm sure you can look at the data in the CSV file and guesstimate the "bit-distance" and figure out how much uncertainty is related to the quantization due to the digital encoding.

My suspicion, though, is that error due to quantization is minimal.
 
Columbia Pike/Pentagon Dead-end: Colinear with Capitol

The FL77/C-130 convoy was seen flying along Columbia Turnpike in Arlington. Many evacuating Capitol Hill heard the explosion at the Pentagon and looked up to witness a large commercial jet sweep up over The Capitol...which is directly in line with the Pentagon and Columbia Pike.

Jamie McIntyre, live on CNN: ”Upon my close-up inspection, there is no evidence of an airplane’s having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon.”

Retired Air Force crash expert Colonel George Nelson: "And then we have the reported crash of a Boeing 757 with a 125-foot wingspan that was reported to have crashed into the Pentagon. It made a 16-foot diameter hole in the building at ground floor, and penetrated three inner rings of the building and left an almost perfect circular hole as it exited the third inner ring of the building."

"If an aluminum Boeing 757 had struck that fortified building, there would have been more aluminum on the ground outside than what went inside, yet there was little visible evidence of an airplane crash on the outside. What physical evidence that could have been of some value, was immediately carted away under cover. And once again, there's the annoying problem of the missing Black Boxes."
 
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