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Flag burning fine

arcticpenguin

Philosopher
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http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,7804518%5E1702,00.html

A SCHOOLTEACHER has become the first New Zealander to be convicted for burning the national flag.

Paul Barry Hopkinson, 37, burned the flag in March to protest against New Zealand's hosting of Australian Prime Minister John Howard, because Mr Howard backed the war in Iraq.

Hopkinson faces a maximum fine of $NZ5,000 ($A4350).
...
Hopkinson argued that his protest was lawful under the NZ Bill of Rights Act. He said he didn't intend to dishonour the NZ flag, and that he'd set it alight to show that the government was disrespecting it by hosting Mr Howard.
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An odd defense in that Mr Howard did not burn a flag, Mr. Hopkinson did.

In how many countries is it legal to burn the national flag? Are there others besides the U.S?
 
I think it is legal in the UK. Burning the royals might get you into trouble.
 
I guess they ain't got that pesky first amendment there.

But they don't have the second amendment either, so it balances out.


(There! I mentioned the Second Amendment! This thread should balloon to 200 posts in no time!)
 
Guess I won't be visiting New Zealand any time soon. Why can't governments just get out of people's business? Who does it harm for him to burn the flag?
 
LFTKBS said:
Guess I won't be visiting New Zealand any time soon. Why can't governments just get out of people's business? Who does it harm for him to burn the flag?
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I agree completely. But then all countries are obsessed with their flags, and have tons of rules.

The link below is to a site that explains all those silly rules and regulations for the American flag.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
 
Why such a big fuss over a piece of cloth. If that piece of cloth is one of your own personal possessions and you choose to burn it. It doesn't really matter what design it printed on it albeit stars and stripes or pink polka dots.

CDR
 
plindboe said:


I agree completely. But then all countries are obsessed with their flags, and have tons of rules.

The link below is to a site that explains all those silly rules and regulations for the American flag.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
Click to expand...
But those regs aren't the law of the land, as they are in NZ.

The morons who drive around w/ tattered and frayed flags on their cars should read that link. There's also a funny pic of Bush autographing a flag in obvious violation of the rules. :p
 
arcticpenguin said:
In how many countries is it legal to burn the national flag? Are there others besides the U.S?
Click to expand...

Japan. However, it is illegal to burn any other country's flag.
 
who's flag was it?

did the guy burn his own flag? Is it the governments flag? Who owns the flag? Is it also against the law to burn your shoes? Now, if I went and burned my neighbors flag, there might be a problem. But if it's my own flag, if I went to the dollar store and bought one of those little hand flags and burned it, how on earth is that anyone's business? Or what if I used crayons to draw a flag on a piece of construction paper and burned it, would that be an issue? Man, governments everwhere and the people love them - jackasses.
 
As I recall, Americans are urged to burn flags...when they are worn out. I see more disrespect for the national flag done by "patriots" who fly them, in tatters, in the dark when it's raining.

I'll have to search my attic for the bumper stickers I made up during the "hardhats vs. hippies" days :
Our Flag: Pray for it,
not to it.
 
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.

"It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.

"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

"It is the soldier, who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag."
--Charles M. Province
 
Richard G said:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.

"It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.

"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

"It is the soldier, who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag."
--Charles M. Province
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Overly simplistic and biased viewpoint. The country with the most soldiers has the most freedom, right? Someone has to decide whether those soldiers will fight for freedom or for oppression.
 
arcticpenguin said:

Overly simplistic and biased viewpoint. The country with the most soldiers has the most freedom, right? Someone has to decide whether those soldiers will fight for freedom or for oppression.
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Agreed. I've always hated the stupid sentiment by the pro-flag burning amendment people who say, "Gosh, I really feel sorry for those veterans of foreign wars who have to see others burning the flag they fought for."

Really? They fought for just a flag? I've always thought it was for national defense, national security, the preservation of our freedoms, or for own our political interests or those of our allies. Going to war over a piece of cloth seems pretty petty and aggressive if you ask me.

AS
 
pupdog said:
As I recall, Americans are urged to burn flags...when they are worn out. I see more disrespect for the national flag done by "patriots" who fly them, in tatters, in the dark when it's raining.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've always found that highly ironic. The preferred method to retire a tattered or faded flag is to burn it, taking care not to let it touch the ground.

Silly, then that burning the flag while attempting to make a political statement of protest is something Congress once made illegal, until the Supreme Court reminded them you can't do that.

It was the clearest attempt to curb free speech in violation of the First Amendment I can recall Congress ever attempting. It was also one of the most bone-headed attempts.

AS
 
LFTKBS said:
Guess I won't be visiting New Zealand any time soon. Why can't governments just get out of people's business? Who does it harm for him to burn the flag?
Click to expand...

Now I'm curious. :) Poor New Zealand! If you are to boycott countries as a tourist, what other stupid laws/rulings would you object against? Because if you're too strict, you'd better found your own country in some South Pacific island. :D
 
I couldn't find it quickly by googling, but I seem to recall a neat demonstration someone had set up to provoke thought on this subject.

He sat up a table with copies of a petition to outlaw burning the U.S. flag. Then he spread a U.S. flag out on the approach to the table.

IIRC, lots of people were willing to trod across the U.S. flag for the purpose of signing the petition.

It was a stroke of genius IMO.

I'll keep trying to find a cite.
 
plindboe said:


I agree completely. But then all countries are obsessed with their flags, and have tons of rules.

The link below is to a site that explains all those silly rules and regulations for the American flag.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
Click to expand...

A little late responding, but whatever. Since 9/11/01, as we all know, the number of flags displayed in the U.S. multiplied a hojillionfold, yet many of the same people with the "STAND TALL AND FREE" and "WE'RE COMMING OSAMA" [sic] and "UNITED WE STAND" have these tattered little flags mounted to their car, etc etc.

I respect the flag, and follow the provisions of the code at all times. But I reserve the right to burn it in protest. So why do those who disrespect it every day want to take away that right?

Sort of OT: is there a collection of tasteless 9/11-related bumper stickers? There should be.

(Edited: ooh, this one's bad.
 
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