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false dilemma ?

hopkinsworld

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Aug 8, 2012
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54
Is this false dilemma or some other logical fallacy ?

Person A: You should change your attitude.
Person B: You mind your own business, don't give me any free advice. Did I told you to change something about yourself ? Then why are you telling me to change !!!


Person B seems to be implicitly saying you would be good person if you don't give me advice or tell me to change and you will be bad if you tell me to change.

Son: How much pension do you get these days ?
Old Mother: (say's pension amount)
3rd person to Son: what the hell, you have NO RIGHT TO ASK HER WHAT IS HER PENSION !!!!!!!!!!!!! MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS, IDIOT !!!!!!!


Here it seems to me that the 3rd person thinks his son will be good guy if he minds his own business, if doesn't mind his own business then he will be a bad guy, giving no 3rd, 4th or 5th option to his son.

What you think ?
 
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no, I don't agree with that. Those implied dichotomies are objective. In other words, you are creating a strawman for what the person B or 3rd person is saying.

You are creating the argument of what is good or not. It isn't being said by the person themselves, or even being implied.
 
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To answer the second question of fallacy, there has to be an argument in order for a fallacy to occur. Your post doesn't give any argument, except for the argument that you create in assuming what the person is implying, which is a strawman, because it doesn't represent what the person said.
 
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Is this false dilemma or some other logical fallacy ?
Person A: You should change your attitude.
Person B: You mind your own business, don't give me any free advice. Did I told you to change something about yourself ? Then why are you telling me to change !!!
Person B seems to be implicitly saying you would be good person if you don't give me advice or tell me to change and you will be bad if you tell me to change.

Neither of those statements constitute a logical argument, so fallacies do not apply. It is just squabbling.

Son: How much pension do you get these days ?
Old Mother: (say's pension amount)
3rd person to Son: what the hell, you have NO RIGHT TO ASK HER WHAT IS HER PENSION !!!!!!!!!!!!! MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS, IDIOT !!!!!!!
Here it seems to me that the 3rd person thinks his son will be good guy if he minds his own business, if doesn't mind his own business then he will be a bad guy, giving no 3rd, 4th or 5th option to his son.

What you think ?

Again, no logical argument here, just people being rude. The third party is making a positive statement about his subjective opinion of the son's actions. There are no other oprions to "exclude"; he only has one opinion of this action. The son "minding his own business" is a different action about which he has a different subjective opinion ("son will be good guy").
 
Okay but aren't they committing false dichotomy if you can observe their behaviour over like 12 months and deduce some patterns about what might be going on with their thinking. E.g. -

Observation 1: Person X only liking and respecting you through the first 9 months when you actually made money but in the last 3 months when you made no money and then he starts verbally abusing you.

Observation 2: You notice during a party when people appreciate you about your health, Person X takes it for granted and doesn't care about it. Person X only respects you once you make money and ignores all the other things

Observation 3: If you send him some good articles through the months via email, Person X ignores it and starts gossiping with people about you - why the hell is he not making money and only sends me irrelevant messages. No matter what email you send to person X, he only thinks you in terms of your earning power. If you actually send him report about how much money you made today - then he respects you, but if you send irrelevant but interesting articles - he starts questioning you and tells you stop all that crap, don't talk about health, don't talk about irrelevant things - just tell me about money.

What you think ? Person X has a performance based relationship with you. If you have good performance(making alots of money etc) then he respects you and if you have low performance(no money) then he might abuse about you to people.

Don't you think the Person X has implicitly only given you 2 options - make money and we are friends and option 2 - don't make money and we are not friends.

"Either make money and we are friends, or don't make money, in which case we are not friends"
 
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But aren't they committing false dictomy if you can observe their behaviour over like 12 months and deduce some patterns about what might be going on with their thinking.
No. First off; stop trying to figure out what other people are "thinking". It is a useless exercise that people use primarily to support their own subjective, non-logical judgments about others. What is important is what people do and say, not what they "think". Second, and to repeat, "false dilemma" applies only to logical arguments, not "thoughts". Whatever the basis for someone's opinion, fallacies do not apply unless the person expresses a logical argument to support them.

Observation 1: Person X only liking and respecting you through the first 9 months when you actually made money but in the last 3 months when you made no money and then he starts verbally abusing you.
First, that is not a "false" dilemma because there is no third option: "Made money" or "Did not make money". What is the third option?

But this is just an value judgement, not a logical argument.

Observation 2: You notice during a party when people appreciate you about your health, Person X takes it for granted and doesn't care about it. Person X only respects once you make money and ignored all the other things

Observation 3: If you send him some good articles through the months via email, Person X ignores you and starts gossiping with people about you - why the hell is he not making money and only sends me irrelevant messages. No matter what email you send to person X, he only thinks you in terms of your earning power. If you actually send him report about how much money you made today - then he respects you, but if you send irrelevant but interesting articles - he starts questioning you and tells you **** all that crap, don't talk about health, don't talk about irrelevant things - just tell me about money.
What conclusion is Person X trying to support here? He simply subjectively values money over health. There is no logical argument here.

What you think ? Person X has a performance based relationship with you. If you have good performance(making alots of money etc) then he respects you and if you have low performance(no money) then he might abuse about about you to people.

Don't you think the Person X has only given you 2 options - make money and we are friends and option 2 - don't make money and we are not friends.
That's not a logical argument either, it is an ultimatum, a conditional, an attempt to influence your behaviour. Fallacies do not apply to manipulation.
 
Is this false dilemma or some other logical fallacy ?

Person B seems to be implicitly saying you would be good person if you don't give me advice or tell me to change and you will be bad if you tell me to change.

Here it seems to me that the 3rd person thinks options. his son will be good guy if he minds his own business, if doesn't mind his own business then he will be a bad guy, giving no 3rd, 4th or 5th option to his son.

What you think ?
A fallacy is an error in reasoning.
A false dilemma is a fallacy where it is argued that there are only two possible options.

A conversation does not have to have a formal structure in order to constitute an argument or line of reasoning.
Your analysis of the conversations is a reasonable interpretation of the thought processes of the persons involved.
When you conclude that these arguments demonstrate a false dilemma you have made a reasonable analysis of them.
 
Oh, so Person X is a manipulator. Also they are just statements and not arguments.
Correct. You cannot logically "disprove" or invalidate an emotionally held subjective opinion.

Or just ignore them. I don't know anything specific about those particular books but I don't have much use for pop-psych or "self-help" type books.
 
I realize that there is good chance that this post is meant to be sarcastic, but I will respond because it may be interpreted as serious and confuse the OP.

No. First off; stop trying to figure out what other people are "thinking". It is a useless exercise that people use primarily to support their own subjective, non-logical judgments about others. What is important is what people do and say, not what they "think". Second, and to repeat, "false dilemma" applies only to logical arguments, not "thoughts". Whatever the basis for someone's opinion, fallacies do not apply unless the person expresses a logical argument to support them.
All arguments, logical or not, start out as thoughts and thoughts can be evaluated based upon the statements or actions that they cause.

First, that is not a "false" dilemma because there is no third option: "Made money" or "Did not make money". What is the third option?
What? "False dilemma" means "no third option".

But this is just an value judgement, not a logical argument.
An attempt to justify or explain a value judgment is an argument, logical or otherwise.

What conclusion is Person X trying to support here? He simply subjectively values money over health. There is no logical argument here.
At the point where Person X makes a claim ("irrelevant things") an argument starts.

That's not a logical argument either, it is an ultimatum, a conditional, an attempt to influence your behaviour. Fallacies do not apply to manipulation.

This is so wrong.

From www.logicalfallacies.info
"Fallacious reasoning keeps us from knowing the truth, and the inability to think critically makes us vulnerable to manipulation by those skilled in the art of rhetoric."

"Arguments that commit fallacies of ambiguity, such as equivocation or the straw man fallacy, manipulate language in misleading ways."
 
I realize that there is good chance that this post is meant to be sarcastic,
Not a bit.

All arguments, logical or not, start out as thoughts and thoughts can be evaluated based upon the statements or actions that they cause.
It is a fool's game. In essence, infering an arguer's "thoughts" based on statements or arguments is no better than creating a strawman. And addressing "thoughts" is usually done to avoid addressing statements or actions directly.

Stick to the staments and the actions, and you eliminate a large potential for error in your own arguments.

What? "False dilemma" means "no third option".
Not quite. "False dilemma" means asserting only two options when a third or more may or do exist. When in actually only two options exist, it is a true dichotomy ("dilemma").

An attempt to justify or explain a value judgment is an argument, logical or otherwise.
Yes, but he hasn't done that in these examples.

At the point where Person X makes a claim ("irrelevant things") an argument starts.
He's only making a "claim" about his own subjective priorities. Any argument would begin with a counter-claim by the arguer that their priorities are more important.

This is so wrong.

From www.logicalfallacies.info
"Fallacious reasoning keeps us from knowing the truth, and the inability to think critically makes us vulnerable to manipulation by those skilled in the art of rhetoric."

"Arguments that commit fallacies of ambiguity, such as equivocation or the straw man fallacy, manipulate language in misleading ways."
The word "manipulate was ambiguous, I aplogize. Person X is not manipulating language or using rhetoric, he is attempting to emotionally control a person by forcing his value system on another. He is in no sense trying to "persuade" ("In philosophy and logic, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons or evidence for accepting a particular conclusion"), but to bully and dominate.
 
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Not a bit.
It is a fool's game. In essence, infering an arguer's "thoughts" based on statements or arguments is no better than creating a strawman. And addressing "thoughts" is usually done to avoid addressing statements or actions directly.
Stick to the staments and the actions, and you eliminate a large potential for error in your own arguments.

This would be reasonable if statements and actions were unambiguous in their meaning or intent. That never happens.
Everyone is always making inferences about someone's thoughts based on statements and actions.
You cannot debate actions and statements, you debate thoughts and meanings.

Not quite. "False dilemma" means asserting only two options when a third or more may or do exist. When in actually only two options exist, it is a true dichotomy ("dilemma").

Person X is presented as giving two options based on the bottom line of income, but the narrative also brings into the equation friendship and respect, so there is more happening than two simple options.

Yes, but he hasn't done that in these examples.

Person X has made an implicit claim that it is valid to base friendship and respect on how successful one is at making short term income, without including any mitigating circumstances.
That would be an arguable claim.

He's only making a "claim" about his own subjective priorities. Any argument would begin with a counter-claim by the arguer that their priorities are more important.

A debate would require a counter claim.
A standard usage of argument ( as you have been using it) is when one simply presents a claim, such as "Your comments about health are irrelevant".

The word "manipulate was ambiguous, I aplogize. Person X is not manipulating language or using rhetoric, he is attempting to emotionally control a person by forcing his value system on another. He is in no sense trying to "persuade" ("In philosophy and logic, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons or evidence for accepting a particular conclusion"), but to bully and dominate.
From the narrative Person X is implying:
If you want friendship and respect from me then you have to make money and I will let no other relevant factors affect my choice to verbally abuse you or not.
Person X is using a false dilemma to manipulate the situation.
 
This would be reasonable if statements and actions were unambiguous in their meaning or intent. That never happens.
Everyone is always making inferences about someone's thoughts based on statements and actions.
You cannot debate actions and statements, you debate thoughts and meanings.

This seems to contradict with this essay by Paul graham. Graham has a Bachelor of Arts in philosophy from Cornell University.

To refute someone you probably have to quote them. You have to find a "smoking gun," a passage in whatever you disagree with that you feel is mistaken, and then explain why it's mistaken. If you can't find an actual quote to disagree with, you may be arguing with a straw man.

Truly refuting something requires one to refute its central point, or at least one of them. And that means one has to commit explicitly to what the central point is. So a truly effective refutation would look like:

The author's main point seems to be x. As he says:
<quotation>
But this is wrong for the following reasons...


The quotation you point out as mistaken need not be the actual statement of the author's main point. It's enough to refute something it depends upon.


But I think there are times when you can't directly quote what you disagree with, there might be a implicit meaning in a statement/argument. Not sure though. What you think ?


From the narrative Person X is implying:
If you want friendship and respect from me then you have to make money and I will let no other relevant factors affect my choice to verbally abuse you or not.
Person X is using a false dilemma to manipulate the situation.

Would you also categorize my first post as false dilemma ?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8537379&postcount=1
 
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This would be reasonable if statements and actions were unambiguous in their meaning or intent. That never happens.

You cannot debate actions and statements,
These seem contradictory.

you debate thoughts and meanings.
Thoughts of others (and sometimes our own) are always and forever unexaminable. We can only look at their effects. Those effects are actions and statements.

Person X is presented as giving two options based on the bottom line of income, but the narrative also brings into the equation friendship and respect, so there is more happening than two simple options.
But it is explicit in the hypothetical "friendship and respects" are entirely conditional on income alone. They are irrelevant as options here; there is no option to have "friendship" correlate with "no income" in this situation.

Person X has made an implicit claim that it is valid to base friendship and respect on how successful one is at making short term income, without including any mitigating circumstances.
Not necessarily. It is possible that the "friendship" is illusory, a tool used simply to dominate. Or it is a facile method to ingratiate Person X with those from whom he can derive resources, not wasted on those with little to no resources of their own.

That would be an arguable claim.
It would be, if made; infering it is is akin to creating a straw man to argue against. Simply assuming an implied claim is actually made leaves one open for error.

From the narrative Person X is implying:
If you want friendship and respect from me then you have to make money and I will let no other relevant factors affect my choice to verbally abuse you or not.

Person X is using a false dilemma to manipulate the situation.
Not quite; that is what you are inferring from hopkins' description of Person X's behaviour. Person X has made no statements, performed no directly observable actions, and may not even exist. How does a fictional example imply anything?

Further, Person X has not made an explicit offer of "friendship and respect" in exchange for a positive income statement (and any such explicit offer could be disingenuous anyway). It is simply reported that he acts in a friendly manner to people with positive incomes, and acts hostile to those without. The "offer" has been inferred and could be in error, as explained above.

And again, were this offer genuine, this is not a "false" dichotomy; For Person X there are no "other relevant factors". His "friendship and respect" is conditional on only one factor, income.

Further, as explained, fallacies relate to logical arguments, and logical arguments are attempts to persuade. There is no attempt to persuade here.
 
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That is exactly what Pisci is saying there. Since there really is no third option, it is a true dilemma, not a false dilemma. You either have money, or you have no money. What would be a third choice in the original statement that would make it a false dilemma?

Here are some options I can think from the narrative:

1st option = Make some money and we are best friends.
2nd option = You don't make money and we(you and person X) are not friends and Person X might verbally abuse you.
3rd option = You don't make money but we can be friends just for friendship sake, friendship in terms of some other common interests other than making money.
4th option = You don't make money but we can help each other out in other life situations and Person X won't abuse you, also Person X will respect and be nice with you just for the friendship sake.
 
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Here are some options I can think from the narrative:

1st option = make money and we are best friends
2nd option = you don't make money and we are not friends and I might verbally abuse you
3rd option = you don't make money but we can be friends just for friendship sake, friendship in terms of some other common interests other than making money
4th option = you don't make money but we can help each other out in other life situations and I won't abuse you, also I will respect and be nice with you just for the friendship sake.

Those are entirely different conditionals you wish he would offer, not options for exchanges of behaviour he is objectively obligated to offer. He has made no explicit offer that you report.

Is he trying to motivate you by treating you poorly when you don't make money, treating you well when you do? You don't know, you can't know. You only know what he tells you or what he does.

Is he treating you badly when you don't make money because you are no use to him, contrariwise treating you well because he seeks to sponge off you? You don't know, you can't know. You only know what he tells you or what he does.

Does he value you less as a person when you don't make money, and higher when you do? You don't know, you can't know. You only know what he tells you or what he does.

Your reports of his behaviour describe a true dichotomy; "positive income = treated well" vs. "negative or zero income = treated poorly". No other factor come into play, in his behaviour, and wishing that were otherwise do not make them applicable. Also, he has made no statments that you report outlining or explaining his behaviour, nor has he attempted to persuade you. There's no argument, thus no fallacy.
 
Those are entirely different conditionals you wish he would offer, not options for exchanges of behaviour he is objectively obligated to offer. He has made no explicit offer that you report.

Is he treating you badly when you don't make money because you are no use to him, contrariwise treating you well because he seeks to sponge off you? You don't know, you can't know. You only know what he tells you or what he does.

Okay I know this is false. I've not provided all the information to the narrative. Person X has used me when I made alot of money. He took alot of money from me using manipulative ways.

Does he value you less as a person when you don't make money, and higher when you do? You don't know, you can't know. You only know what he tells you or what he does.

Sorry for not providing all the details to the narrative. Yes, I know person X had valued less of me when I made no money but suddenly valued alot when I did.

What do you think now ?
 
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Okay I know this is false. I've not provided all the information to the narrative. Person X has used me when I made alot of money. He took alot of money from me using manipulative ways.
Then his behaviour suggests a correlation between treating you well and an opportunity to profit off you. We still don't know his thoughts, we can only infer what we guess his thoughts might be.

There's no "false dichotomy" here; A mugger who shoots you if your wallet is empty and lets you go if your wallet is full isn't using a false dichotomy and neither is Person X.

Sorry for not providing all the details to the narrative. Yes, I know person X had valued less of me when I made no money but suddenly valued alot when I did.
To be precise, he acts like he values less of you when you don't make money, he acts like he values you more when you do. It is possible even when he treats you well he still holds you in contempt, or may be sociopathically apathetic you personally, seeing you simply as a means to resources and his behaviour is simply a calculated stick-and-carrot to get you to earn money he can bully from you.

What do you think now ?
Where is there an attempt to persuade?
 
Then his behaviour suggests a correlation between treating you well and an opportunity to profit off you. We still don't know his thoughts, we can only infer what we guess his thoughts might be.

There's no "false dichotomy" here; A mugger who shoots you if your wallet is empty and lets you go if your wallet is full isn't using a false dichotomy and neither is Person X.


To be precise, he acts like he values less of you when you don't make money, he acts like he values you more when you do. It is possible even when he treats you well he still holds you in contempt, or may be sociopathically apathetic you personally, seeing you simply as a means to resources and his behaviour is simply a calculated stick-and-carrot to get you to earn money he can bully from you.


Where is there an attempt to persuade?

That clears things up. Thanks
 

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