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"Exploded Nodes" in Crop Circles

Anathema

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I've been looking for follow-up research on the claims that plants found in crop circles have been subjected to high-energy radiation of some sort, as evidenced by node elongation and the holes made by apparent steam evacuation. The woo sites are loaded with references, but the scientific sites don't seem to contain any direct answers to this. Most references are in posts in discussion boards, with no real conclusive scientific background to show.

Does anyone know of scientific sites that address this directly?

Thanks
 
Well being as Crop Circles are known to be fake, and have been repeatedly demonstrated to be faked, and the hoaxers freely admit that they are fake, and there are websites that show you how to fake them and competitions on the best faked examples...

I'm not sure if any serious scientific survey would ever be carried out on them.

What would be the point?
 
Ashles said:
Well being as Crop Circles are known to be fake, and have been repeatedly demonstrated to be faked, and the hoaxers freely admit that they are fake, and there are websites that show you how to fake them and competitions on the best faked examples...

I'm not sure if any serious scientific survey would ever be carried out on them.

What would be the point?
At the very least, I'd like to see the case spelled out. Some of the forum posts I viewed seemed to question the "chain of evidence"; basically suggesting the "samples" couldn't be reliably traced back to the crop circle of their alleged origin with any certainty. It would be a good idea to dig into the matter to determine if that level of fakery were actually being employed.
 
Here is more information than you could possibly want:

http://www.bltresearch.com/index.html

Click on "Plant Abnormalities" for the good stuff.

~~ Paul
I take it back.

I thought that crop circles were considered by everyone to be about the silliest of all paranormal beliefs.

Now I see my mistake, my apologies.

This is obviously a very worthwhile and important avenue of scientific exploration and is probably a method by which aliens would choose to contact us.

Certainly if I had doctorate in Minerology, Geological Science or Chemical Engineering it is exactly how I would be choosing to spend my research time.
 
Ashles said:
I take it back.

I thought that crop circles were considered by everyone to be about the silliest of all paranormal beliefs.

Now I see my mistake, my apologies.

This is obviously a very worthwhile and important avenue of scientific exploration and is probably a method by which aliens would choose to contact us.

Certainly if I had doctorate in Minerology, Geological Science or Chemical Engineering it is exactly how I would be choosing to spend my research time.
And of course there's the whole fields of linguistics, communication and ethics to consider.

How is it that

1. Aliens received UK government directives regarding countryside restrictions during the Foot and Mouth outbreak in 2001
2. Aliens were able to read and interpret these directives from English
3. Aliens had the community spirit to honour the FMD countryside restrictions.

While strenously denied by crop circle proponents, it is a fact that the first crop circles to emerge in the UK in 2001 did so only when, and within days of, FMD restrictions were lifted in each of the counties where these circles were found.
 
And the strange popularity in the expression of the Mandelbrot set after it was calculated by human mathematicians.

No examples in recorded history of this particular popular shape before then.

Obviously the aliens don't want to scare us by showing us anything new.
 
Ashles said:
And the strange popularity in the expression of the Mandelbrot set after it was calculated by human mathematicians.

No examples in recorded history of this particular popular shape before then.

Obviously the aliens don't want to scare us by showing us anything new.

Oh ho ho, but...

http://www.santarosa.edu/~jwatrous/art18.2/alban/
It has been said that it is "impossible to draw this diagram without the use of a computer."

There you have it, it is impossible to draw (or copy!) the Mandelbrot set without a computer. You see, only aliens can do the impossible.
 
I understand and agree the circles are fake. Scientific analysis has been applied to almost every claim about them, including researchers going out and physically duplicating circles. Now, the "strongest" "evidence" the woos put forth is photos of mangled crops, showing damage claimed inflicted by microwaves.

I'm not suggesting this is best use of scientists' time (although there appear to be many scientists who volunteer to do such debunking), I'm simply trying to determine if any of them have looked. One forum posting mentioned some UK physics students trying to develop of portable "microwave blaster" to duplicate the effect --- I'd love to read any reports of their attempts.

If circle proponents are attempting to fake such effects, and provide elaborately fabricated evidence, that would be worth noting. It's one thing to believe in crop circle magic because you're gullible; it's quite another go to ridiculous extremes of fraud to make yourself an "expert cereologist". People are still buying into this nonsense...

PS: the bltresearch.com site is pure "woo". They are out to prove the claims that circles are not hoaxes.
 
PS: the bltresearch.com site is pure "woo". They are out to prove the claims that circles are not hoaxes.
Can you really ever trust a research organisation named after a sandwich?
 
Anathema said:
PS: the bltresearch.com site is pure "woo". They are out to prove the claims that circles are not hoaxes.

Not sure if it's "pure" woo, as there are some REALLY woo sites out there. At least bltresearch.com says things like

Exactly how this effect could have been produced is not understood.

and
Secondly, our intent is to publish these research results in peer-reviewed scientific journals

I'm in no position to assess their claims, neither being a botanist nor caring enough to investigate, but perhaps you will find refutations to their "plant abnormalities" section and let us know.
 
Ashles said:
Can you really ever trust a research organisation named after a sandwich?
The Monte Cristo Research Society is busy trying to turn ham & cheese on French toast into buried treasure.

:roll: Man, I crack myself up.
 
Ashles said:
Can you really ever trust a research organisation named after a sandwich?
Doesn't the Royal Navy have a Sub Reasearch Unit?

Not amused? Ok, here you will find an account of a woman called Rolls doing research into sandwiches... nominative determinism strikes again.
 
I'm in no position to assess their claims, neither being a botanist nor caring enough to investigate, but perhaps you will find refutations to their "plant abnormalities" section and let us know.
I don't want to speak for scientists and researchers in general, but I think there might be some occasions where no serious (or indeed amateur) scientist in the world can be bothered to refute certain claims.

If the BLT institute wish to push their findings forward as some kind of proof that's up to them.

If someone can be bothered to refute them that's up to them too.

Myself, I'm having difficulting even being bothered to finish this post on the subject.

Wade through their reports? Not a chance in hell.
 
Ashles said:
I don't want to speak for scientists and researchers in general, but I think there might be some occasions where no serious (or indeed amateur) scientist in the world can be bothered to refute certain claims.
I think there has to be at least a few respectable inquiries into even the silliest claims. You have to know that as ridiculous as they may be, it's irresponsible to allow people to languish in superstition.
 
I think there has to be at least a few respectable inquiries into even the silliest claims. You have to know that as ridiculous as they may be, it's irresponsible to allow people to languish in superstition.
I disagree. I think there is a point at which claims become silly enough that they need a little more support and evidence even to enter into the testing arena. Otherwise (just check out the internet!) no respectable scientist would ever be able to research their own chosen areas of study.

To pick a random statistic out of the air I estimate there are five times as many paranormal claims in the world as there are scientists.
(No I don't have a reference):)
 
Re: Re: "Exploded Nodes" in Crop Circles

JMA said:
The only thing I know is an debunking of Haselhof and Levengood claim:

http://psiapplications.com/Treepad/documents/70.html

The debunking is by Joe Nickell on the CSICOP website:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2002-09/crop-circles.html

If there is other scientific sites that address this directly, I'd like also to know them...
Re Levengood (the "L" in the BLT) and the Balls Of Light (BOL) "theory":

Levengood is relying on the old Argument From Ignorance fallacy: he doesn't know (is ignorant of) how it was done so it must have been done by _________ (and here he inserts his preferred explanation: BOLs in this case). Richard Dawkins calls it Argument From Personal Incredulity. The flaw in this line of reasoning is that there are limitless things that could cause an unexplained observation, including humans using an unknown method. All it really shows is the arguer's lack of imagination. This is not how science is done.

What Levengood needs to learn is the principle of falsification: can the hypothesis be tested in such a way that, if the hypothesis is wrong, it will fail the test? (Because what good is a test that, if the hypothesis is wrong, it will pass the test?) Levengood hasn't done this, to my knowledge, he just finds "anomalies" that he thinks couldn't have been done by humans. He needs to find positive evidence for his theory, not what he thinks is negative evidence against human hoaxers. Until he finds a way to falsify his theory of how crop circles are made (if he even has a theory: BOLs are being suggested here), he hasn't done that. And since we know that some or even most crop circles are made by humans (even leading "cerealogists" admit 80% are man made), there is no reason to suppose they all aren't.

That's all you really need to know. However, even if we ignore the argument from ignorance and lack of falsification, Levengood's work is still fundamentally flawed. He takes stalks from crop circles and from near the circles, and notes that the stalks taken from in the circles are different from those taken from outside the circles. Well duh: the stalks in the circles have been flattened! He also finds that some circles do not produce stalks with anomalies. He declares these to be "fakes" (ie man made), while the stalks that do have the anomalies are from "genuine" (ie not man-made), circles. How does he know this? Because if the stalks have anomalies they must be from "genuine" circles. How does he know this? Because "fake" circles don't have anomalies. How does he know this? Because if they have anomalies they are not from "fake" circles (etc etc: you get the idea). This is, of course, circular reasoning (pun inevitable): another fallacy. Also, none of his work is done double-blind and so experimenter bias is not controlled for. Levengood's work has not to my knowledge been published in any mainstream peer reviewed journal, nor has it ever been replicated. Pretty safe to say it's nuts until Levengood can prove it isn't. (ie, BOLs are BOLLOCKs.)
 
EHocking said:
While strenously denied by crop circle proponents, it is a fact that the first crop circles to emerge in the UK in 2001 did so only when, and within days of, FMD restrictions were lifted in each of the counties where these circles were found.
I'm not sure that's strictly true.

And from the CDC

Beginning in early June, public rights of way started to be reopened; by July 27, an estimated 85% of public rights of way were open again.

Compare different years. I'm not convinced there is a difference.
 
Anathema said:
One forum posting mentioned some UK physics students trying to develop of portable "microwave blaster" to duplicate the effect --- I'd love to read any reports of their attempts.
There was a TV program a year or so ago (science channel?) where some MIT students did just that. Did anyone else see it?
 

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