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Evidentialism "Proves" Atheists Wrong.

Gord_in_Toronto

Penultimate Amazing
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This was sent to me by someone on another list as something to convince me that God exists. It did not. :(

“A wise man,” wrote Hume, “proportions his belief to the evidence.” This is a formulation of evidentialism – the view that a belief is rational or justified if and only if it is supported by one’s evidence. A more generalized version of evidentialism covers beliefs with various degrees of confidence, as well as other ‘doxastic attitudes’ such as disbelief, doubt and suspension of judgment (doxa is Greek for belief or opinion). It states that the rational or justified attitude to adopt with respect to a claim or proposition is the attitude that fits one’s evidence. Although evidentialism is much harder to clarify and defend than it might seem, there is no denying its prima facie reasonableness.


Evidentialism plays a key role in attacks against religious belief by the New Atheists, as it did for Hume. Belief in the existence of God or other divine realities is criticized on the ground that there is no good evidence for it. Echoing Carl Sagan and Laplace before him, we are told that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,” and we are assured that there is nothing of the sort when it comes to the divine. The upshot is that religious belief must be judged irrational, epistemically unjustified, or intellectually illegitimate, and it should be rejected. As Christopher Hitchens is fond of saying, “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”

http://www.philosophynow.org/issue78/78antony.htm

Does it convince anyone here?

:hit:
 
The paragraph quoted was quite convincing indeed. If I wasn't already an atheist; I would have de-converted...
 
This was sent to me by someone on another list as something to convince me that God exists. It did not. :(



http://www.philosophynow.org/issue78/78antony.htm

Does it convince anyone here?

:hit:


How could I be convinced? Those paragraphs never get to the part where he argues that god-beliefs are reasonable. Is there some portion missing?

ETA: Oh, there's a lot more behind the link. I'll get back to you later.
 
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He never gets to the part where he argues god-beliefs are reasonable. He's basically turned the whole evidence thing back to the atheists. We don't have any evidence, but neither do you, and since you're the ones who say that evidence is important, it's your responsibility to provide it.

So yeah, he didn't convince me that gods exist. But I'll tell you he has completely rocked my world when it comes to the existence of leprechauns. I just realized I can't prove they don't exist, so now I've got to completely rework my schedule to leprechaun-proof my entire garden. Now that they know I'm not so sure they don't exist, I'm sure they'll be out to get me!
 
You're kidding, if it was convincing I'd be out right now with a fishing net trying to catch Nessie
:rolleyes:
And I am a theist
:p
 
Ha!

While the word ‘atheism’ has been used in something like this sense (see for example Antony Flew’s article ‘The Presumption of Atheism’), it is a highly non-standard use. So understood, atheism would include agnosticism, since agnostics are also not theists.

Why, yes, indeed. Most atheists consider agnosticism an atheist position. And most atheists are what is called 'weak atheists'...
So, yes, his second point is flawed...


The trouble is that Ockham’s Razor is of little use in disputes over whether some entity X exists. That is because it is typically an open question in such disputes whether everything that needs explaining can in fact be explained without X. Theists believe, or at least suspect, that there are features of reality which are inexplicable without appeal to a divine being: the existence of a contingent universe, the fine-tuning of physical constants, etc.

?
So the theists do assume that some things exist that can not be explained naturalistically and, therefore, that Occam's razor can not be applied on these things?
What about we apply Occam's razor on this first things? Why should we assume that they can not be explained naturalistically? Everything we found an explication for, so far, was explained naturalistically....

That is because there is weak evidence for a divine reality – religious experience, the fine-tuning of physical laws and constants, the apparent contingency of the universe, etc.

These are not weak evidences at all.
They are rejected evidence. Atheists do not consider them to be valid evidence of anything but if they were to be accepted as valid, they would be accepted as very strong evidence indeed.
So, you'd need to prove that these are indeed evidenciary...
 
Let's see.... Believers have no evidence of the existence of God.

Atheists have no evidence of the non-existence of God....

There seems to be a logical problem here. What sort of evidence would the atheist produce?
 
He first conveniently defines "atheism" as an assertion that there are absolutely no gods, then he goes on to show why that position isn't tenable philosophically.

My answer? Sure, you've disproven a view that no one actually holds.
 
Yeah, what they said. He starts with a strawman, and builds upon it.

Michael Antony is a Senior Lecturer in the Department of Philosophy at the University of Haifa, Israel. He is writing a book on how to approach the question of whether there is a divine reality, and what it might be like.

I have to wait to see what his divine reality looks like, but from this piffle-ish essay, I can predict what his book will read like: more piffle.
 
You know what guys? Considering how faulty is this straw-man attack of an essay... I wonder, maybe this philosophy professor is the one that once gave our infamous Doc an A in a philosophy class?
 
I suggested to the person that posted it on the list where I read it, that, if anything, the article "proves" we all should be agnostics. He has not responded. He knows that I am an absolute materialist while he is a practicing Roman Catholic. We do not get along very well philosophically-wise. ;)
 
There are a few 'strong atheists' out there that'd fit the author's definition, but they are few and far between...
 
Wow, this guy apparently holds a doctorate degree, talks about Hume, and isn't aware that someone already invented a word for "evidentialism" in the 17th century?
 
Oh, I just learned that there is something called evidentialism, but according to wikipedia, it's the strictly subjective (i.e. stupid) brother of empiricism.

wikipedia said:
Formulating evidentialism in terms of the doxastic attitude of belief its most-defended form comes from Conee and Feldman: Belief, B, toward proposition, p, is epistemically justified for Subject,S, at time,t, if and only if B fits the evidence S has at t.

vs.

wikipedia said:
Empirical is used in conjunction with both the natural and social sciences, and refers to the use of working hypotheses that are testable using observation or experiment.

So I guess it's just one more straw man in this haystack.
 
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This guy from the link really opened my eyes! Now I understand! So If we give the same weigh to our respective lack of evidence in favor and against any imaginable creature *cough* *cough*, it would be coherent to give both positions the same probability of being correct. Let's see:

- The number of entities that can be imaginable are infinite (We don't know for sure, in absolute terms, if they exist).

- Based on the apparent lack of evidence in favor and against the existence of each imaginable entity *cough*, we decide that the probabilities of each one actually existing are 50% / 50%.

So now I have a question: Flying Spaghetti Monster or Invisible Pink Unicorn? One of them probably doesn't exist. I'm going to have to ask my ghost professor. Or is he just a soul, not a ghost? Well, probably one of these two descriptions is real.
 
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I know you can have evidence disproving specific claims about a deity but what sort of evidence does this guy want atheists to provide? As soon as they claim that their deity is intangible, invisible, inscrutable and outside of the normal bounds of time and space there really isn't anything to prove or disprove. You can point to lack of evidence for the historical claims or for specific miracles until you are blue in the face but it does no good.

There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a being who's existence or lack there of has no tangible effect on the universe!
 
Well since it's 50/50 for the IPU, and 50/50 for the FSM, the chances that either of them exist are 75%. For three imaginable beings, those odds go up to 87.5%, so for an infinite number of imaginable things, the odds that one of them exist is 100%. In fact, I'm pretty sure this means that half of the infinite imaginable things can be expected to exist, which is also an infinite number, so there.
 
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Well since it's 50/50 for the IPU, and 50/50 for the FSM, the chanches that either of them exist are 75%. For three imaginable beings, those odds go up to 87.5%, so for an infinite number of imaginable things, the odds that one of them exist is 100%. In fact, I'm pretty sure this means that half of the infinite imaginable things can be expected to exist, which is also an infinite number, so there.

There you're right. Talk about overpopulation.
 

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