Equation for dilluting a substance too much?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I was watching one of Randi's seminars and he mentioned some equation dealing with hemeopathy,He said that you can only dilute a substance into water so much before the chances of one molecule existing in the water of the origonal substance was 1 and 10 or something like that...

What is the equation called? What is it?

 

[BillC]

There's no equation as such that I'm aware of, however you might be thinking of the Avogadro Limit, which is the limit at which there should only be one molecule of active substance remaining in the solvent.

If the homeopath starts with a one molar solution, s/he will have 6.025E+23 molecules per litre of solvent. Each successive 'succussion' (dilution stage) will divide this number by 100 (for each C potency). Hence after 11 succussions, you can expect around 6.02E+23/(100^11) = 60 molecules remaining per litre. One more succussion, and there's a 60/100 = 60% chance of a single molecule left in your C12 preparation. Any further dilutions obviously only result in a (rapidly decreasing) probability of any molecules remaining.

 

[anor277]

I was watching one of Randi's seminars and he mentioned some equation dealing with hemeopathy,He said that you can only dilute a substance into water so much before the chances of one molecule existing in the water of the origonal substance was 1 and 10 or something like that...

What is the equation called? What is it?

To echo the previous poster, Avogadro's number is defined as the number of carbon atoms in 12.01 g carbon; it is known to high precision and is the link between the macroscopic world (grams, pounds, ounces) and the world of atoms and molecules. I believe in the high potency regime some homeopathic dilutions are the equivalent of one particle in cubic light year volumes of solvents. At this level the mass of substance in solution is less than the mass of fundamental particles such as the electron (i.e. there is no substance in solution).

 

[Zep]

It's worse than that, actually. Some homeopathic remedies are diluted to 1000C level, designated "M", and then to the 1000M level ("MM" obviously). That's some friggin' huge number - 10^(10^(10^3)), I think.

But there's a problem. Let's look at quarks, the smallest atomic unit. And consider the size of the known universe. If we filled the known universe with quarks closest packed, i.e. with no space between them as there usually is, there would still be many many orders of magnitude fewer quarks than the above number.

And yet...homeopaths continue to claim "there is something there!"

 

[Kumar]

Those may not consider homeopathic remedies as atomic/molecular efect of active substances but energetic( by vital force) in higher potencies. Btw, What is the limit, when no force/photons or their effect can be there?

 

[Donks]

Those may not consider homeopathic remedies as atomic/molecular efect of active substances but energetic( by vital force) in higher potencies. Btw, What is the limit, when no force/photons or their effect can be there?

Care to demonstrate this "vital force"? Oh, and the limit has already been stated in this thread. Read it.

 

[Kumar]

Care to demonstrate this "vital force"? Oh, and the limit has already been stated in this thread. Read it.

Research pendancy alike to know in science "prime force for all forces".

Still what is the calculation of limit of existance on fundamental forces on dilution/potentization?

 

[Donks]

Research pendancy alike to know in science "prime force for all forces".

What research?

Still what is the calculation of limit of existance on fundamental forces on dilution/potentization?

Did you read the thread? Because it got answered already. In the first 2 posts.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Hence after 11 succussions, you can expect around 6.02E+23/(100^11) = 60 molecules remaining per litre. One more succussion, and there's a 60/100 = 60% chance of a single molecule left in your C12 preparation. Any further dilutions obviously only result in a (rapidly decreasing) probability of any molecules remaining.

Actually, the probability of there not being at any molecule at all is about e^-.6 or 55%, so there's about a 45% chance that there's one or more molecule.

 

[Kumar]

What research?

Did you read the thread? Because it got answered already. In the first 2 posts.

Science of vital force couldn't yet be known, but people are trying to know its science. Alike, we couldn't yet know "prime force/source for all forces".

I am talking about limit of energetic presence( i.e. presence of any force or its effect),not just molecular presence.

 

[Donks]

Science of vital force couldn't yet be known, but people are trying to know its science. Alike, we couldn't yet know "prime force/source for all forces".

What people?

I am talking about limit of energetic presence( i.e. presence of any force or its effect),not just molecular presence.

Are you claiming that substances have an effect even when not present?

 

[Kumar]

What people?

.

Are you claiming that substances have an effect even when not present?

Most want to understand, science of "prime force/God etc." Many are trying. Refer Religion...forum.

Not claiming, but observations & experiances of homeopathic community consisting mass.....people indicate it in this favour i.e. presence of some forces or effect of forces resembling to claimed proving effects of any remedy is there in remedies. Rest science has to find out/understand in their language.

Let us talk something new/dynamic, to talk/continue/get.

 

[burrahobbit]

Kumar probably believes in the "Force" a la Star Wars. As far as I know, only the Jedi were researching it. (and weren't very good at it)

 

[Donks]

Most want to understand, science of "prime force/God etc." Many are trying. Refer Religion...forum.

Feel free to link to the relevant posts or threads.

Not claiming

So you are not claiming it? Are you willing to defend it then? Cause if not, then I see no reason to discuss it.

but observations & experiances of homeopathic community consisting mass.....people indicate it in this favour i.e. presence of some forces or effect of forces resembling to claimed proving effects of any remedy is there in remedies.

Let these homeopaths come here and defend it then. Let them present their evidence. Cause if nobody here presents evidence or defends the claim, I see no reason to discuss it.

Rest science has to find out/understand in their language.

Homeopathy has been weighed, homeopathy have been measured, and homeopathy have been found wanting.

Let us talk something new/dynamic, to talk/continue/get.

Fine, got any topic in mind? Any claim you wish to defend?

 

[Kumar]

How/why should I trust/base on modern evidances, till......? Why then ,to go for modern evidances instead of practical observations & experiances in mass & well distributed people since long of its community.

 

[Donks]

How/why should I trust/base on modern evidances, till......?

Because it is a method that has been shown to produce repeatable, accurate results.

Why then ,to go for modern evidances instead of practical observations & experiances in mass & well distributed people since long of its community.

Because anecdotal evidence is unreliable, as has been explained to you countless times. But since you make no claims, there is no point in discussing, right?
Do you make any claims regarding the topic of this thread? Any claims regarding mollecular presence in ultradilute homeopathic remedies?

 

[Kumar]

Because it is a method that has been shown to produce repeatable, accurate results.

If so repeatable & accurate, Why these then got altered? Why these or some not yet persisted/made absolute?

Because anecdotal evidence is unreliable, as has been explained to you countless times. But since you make no claims, there is no point in discussing, right?[/quote]

Is it a rule/law that whatever is as per science should/can only exist/valid? What about your claims on which you can't stick for long? I can't claim for non-absolute aspects as you claim?

Do you make any claims regarding the topic of this thread? Any claims regarding mollecular presence in ultradilute homeopathic remedies?

Yes, molecules of active substances may not be present in very higher potencies? (may; because if some one escapes probabilty).

 

[David Swidler]

There are people who claim that the primordial soup was tomato. But I'm not here to defend the claim. I just wanted to let everybody know, 'cause I'm so generous.

As an aside, we all know that's not true. It's clear it was either pumpkin or [consults numerology chart...] minestrone.

 

[Donks]

If so repeatable & accurate, Why these then got altered?

Because it's a best available method, not a perfect method. If something better comes along, or if an unexplained observation is made, science evolves.

Why these or some not yet persisted/made absolute?

because it is recognized that a newer, better theory or a new observation can be made at any time.

Is it a rule/law that whatever is as per science should/can only exist/valid?

I believe I addressed this same question on the other thread. Would you like a link?

What about your claims on which you can't stick for long?

Which claims of mine do you refer to?

I can't claim for non-absolute aspects as you claim?

You can claim whatever you want, just be sure that we will ask for evidence to support your claims. And if you try to pull your "I make no claims" crap again, I will not discuss the matter. You can't have it both ways, either you back up your claims with evidence, or you make no claims.

Yes, molecules of active substances may not be present in very higher potencies? (may; because if some one escapes probabilty).

Yes, that is exactly right. In higher potencies it becomes extremely unlikely that there are any molecules of the active substance present. Well done.

 

[geni]

I was watching one of Randi's seminars and he mentioned some equation dealing with hemeopathy,He said that you can only dilute a substance into water so much before the chances of one molecule existing in the water of the origonal substance was 1 and 10 or something like that...

What is the equation called? What is it?

http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Homeopathy#Discussion