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Enviro-smackdown!

Excellent!

My money would be on Bill Nye, but I don't see how having an 'organic' garden lowers one's carbon footprint more than just a regular, non-woo garden.
 
Yes they are: but he should specify exactly how his gardening methods will be reducing his carbon footprint. Just saying it's organic is skimming over details. For example, which aspects of the 'organic' system will he be using? How does it reduce his carbon footprint?

Organic is a specific term, denoting a specific set of practices and demanding adherence to a particular set of standards. It wasn't created to be a carbon-neutral or carbon-reducing system of production (wiki).

Having an organic garden does not necessarily equal a carbon-reducing garden. One can have a non-organic garden (as I do) and not need much, if any, fertilizer. But there's no way it's an organic garden, as I don't follow the organic standards, and I'd never call it organic.
 
Yes they are: but he should specify exactly how his gardening methods will be reducing his carbon footprint. Just saying it's organic is skimming over details. For example, which aspects of the 'organic' system will he be using? How does it reduce his carbon footprint?

Organic is a specific term, denoting a specific set of practices and demanding adherence to a particular set of standards. It wasn't created to be a carbon-neutral or carbon-reducing system of production (wiki).

Having an organic garden does not necessarily equal a carbon-reducing garden. One can have a non-organic garden (as I do) and not need much, if any, fertilizer. But there's no way it's an organic garden, as I don't follow the organic standards, and I'd never call it organic.

Don't forget to add into the equation the pro rated fraction of the human tending the garden's carbon footprint; after doing that the guy's claim will look quite foolish!
 
Fossil fuels are used in manufacturing of fertilizers.

and clothes, tools, seed, soil amenders, hoses, water pipes, fencing, netting, lumber... What materials do you come across normally that don't involve the use of fossil fuels somewhere in their appearance on a shelf for your use?
 
We need an environmentalist version of Tekken. I want to see Al Gore take on Kofi Annan:D. Al's X-X-Y-Triangle-L2-X-Start-Start-Up-Right Carbon Offset combo undoes any damage done to him, replenishing all his hit points!
 
and clothes, tools, seed, soil amenders, hoses, water pipes, fencing, netting, lumber... What materials do you come across normally that don't involve the use of fossil fuels somewhere in their appearance on a shelf for your use?

Very roughly, one could figure 1 ton CO2 emitted for every $2000 spent on USA goods or services; for the fraction of goods or services that is from China (well, let's just include the whole far east) 1 ton CO2 for every $500 US spent. These numbers are from dividing the GNP of the country by the CO2 emissions.

To be more precise one needs to break spending down by industrial category and country; anyway, you get the picture.

So....let's see.....where did that nice little Organic Victory carbon neutral garden just go?:D
 
And foregoing 100 years of agricultural science, research and discovery, in favour of following the rambling teachings of a German mystic:

Priceless.
 
How does it reduce his carbon footprint?

I have no idea, but you could ask either one of them, I bet they would be happy to tell you. Organic farming/gardening doesn't use fossil fuels, so you get CO2 locked up, rather than released, by the very nature of things.

Having an organic garden does not necessarily equal a carbon-reducing garden.

If you are doing it right it does.

Organic farming is a form of agriculture which avoids or largely excludes the use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, plant growth regulators, and livestock feed additives. As far as possible, organic farmers rely on crop rotation, crop residues, animal manures and mechanical cultivation to maintain soil productivity and tilth to supply plant nutrients, and to control weeds, insects and other pests.
(wiki).

See? Synthetics and pesticides, as well as livestock additives and any other chemicals all require fossil fuel, for production and transportation. An organic garden reduces Carbon, it doesn't produce any, except for the CO2 you are breathing out when you work on it. :D

Both men in the article are using solar, wind and organic gardening. The competition is on who can do it best.

and clothes, tools, seed, soil amenders, hoses, water pipes, fencing, netting, lumber... What materials do you come across normally that don't involve the use of fossil fuels somewhere in their appearance on a shelf for your use?

I think you are confusing the issue. Organic gardening doesn't use carbon fuels to fertilize or kill insects. The net gain is locking up CO2, not producing more of it.

So....let's see.....where did that nice little Organic Victory carbon neutral garden just go?:D

I don't understand your reasoning. Gardening without using fossil fuels not only reduces the CO2, it saves even more fossil fuels because you don't have to buy produce that depends on fossil fuels for cultivation, harvesting, transportation, refrigeration, and other cost involved with agribusiness.

It is a simple point, one that both Begley and Nye seem to grasp. :wackywink:
 
Don't think that is going to get you off the hook. I responded with logic, reason and intelligence, I even linked to Wiki. One emoticon isn't going to cut it. :p
 
I have no idea, but you could ask either one of them, I bet they would be happy to tell you. Organic farming/gardening doesn't use fossil fuels, so you get CO2 locked up, rather than released, by the very nature of things.

That's not entirely true, robinson. That's what I meant by my reply. Organic farming still uses fossil fuels as much as an "ordinary" farmer because they still have to work the land just as much as anyone else. Merely because organic farms don't use some forms of pesticides and fertilizers does not in any way mean that they don't use pesticides and fertilizers on their crops. There are many fertilizers and pesticides that qualify as being organic. Also, CO2 is only "locked up" until it's released back into the natural cycle after harvest, just like conventional farming.

If you are doing it right it does.

The only way any type of farming will take carbon out of the cycle is if the inedible portions of the crop are sequestered in such a way that the carbon does not recycle. Otherwise, whatever carbon was trapped in biota will re-enter the biosphere. Sorry.

See? Synthetics and pesticides, as well as livestock additives and any other chemicals all require fossil fuel, for production and transportation. An organic garden reduces Carbon, it doesn't produce any, except for the CO2 you are breathing out when you work on it. :D

No, sorry. You misinterpreted what you read. The quote states that organic farmers avoid synthetic pesticides and fertilizers. It does not say that they avoid all pesticides and fertilizers. There's still enough "organic" pesticides and fertilizers used in organic farming that also require the use of fossil fuels that the difference is negligible.

Both men in the article are using solar, wind and organic gardening. The competition is on who can do it best.

Robinson, as much as I respect you, I believe you've fallen prey to the weasel-wording of the organic movement. Solar and wind generation have their costs in polluting industries just as much as any other technology, including pesticides and soil amenders. There really is no going to a monoculture and protecting it with "natural" defenses. Many of the natural defenses are way more toxic than the technological fixes. Many of the crops we enjoy today were too toxic for human consumption before breeders cultivated their modern archetypes.

I think you are confusing the issue. Organic gardening doesn't use carbon fuels to fertilize or kill insects. The net gain is locking up CO2, not producing more of it.

No, robinson, that is plainly not true. Organic farms use organic fertilizers and pesticides which require as much fuel to synthesize, purify and transport as conventional farming. And, the any carbon locked up in the inedible portions of crops is undone as soon as these are plowed under to enrich the soil.

I don't understand your reasoning. Gardening without using fossil fuels not only reduces the CO2, it saves even more fossil fuels because you don't have to buy produce that depends on fossil fuels for cultivation, harvesting, transportation, refrigeration, and other cost involved with agribusiness.

As I've written previously, organic farms use organic pesticides and fertilizer that also need fossil fuels for production and transport. Do you really believe that the soil on organic farms needs no amendment but conventional farms do? Where do the carbon, phosphorous, sulfur, etc come from that are required to produce a vigorous crop? There's no magic in organic farming. The crops still require the very same nutrients and protection as the conventional crops do.

It is a simple point, one that both Begley and Nye seem to grasp. :wackywink:

The main point of the article seems to be a silly race to be "greener'. These two have not made any statements that support your claims. I think you need to do more research into what is acceptable in organic and conventional farming. The two really are quite similar except that one is not as productive as the other.
 
I think you are confusing an organic garden with organic farming.

Organic gardening requires only elbow grease, no fossil fuels are involved. And you grow your own pesticides, and what you don't eat is turned into fertilizer, (unless you are REALLY organic, like the Japanese, and recycle even what you eat).

I think the problem here is you don't understand Gardening. Have you ever tried organic gardening? (Hint: They used to just call it gardening)

It isn't rocket science.
 
The main point of the article seems to be a silly race to be "greener'. These two have not made any statements that support your claims. I think you need to do more research into what is acceptable in organic and conventional farming. The two really are quite similar except that one is not as productive as the other.

I thought the main point was that right now, it is possible to reduce fossil fuel use, if you can afford it. As to productivity, organic gardens can be far more productive than chemical gardens. Speaking from experience. Organic taste better as well, as any gardener who has tried both can tell you.

Again, I think you are confusing gardening with farming.
 
I thought the main point was that right now, it is possible to reduce fossil fuel use, if you can afford it.

I didn't see that in the article. I just saw two yupps having a silly neighborhood war. Nothing on the macro scale that translates to considerable savings.

As to productivity, organic gardens can be far more productive than chemical gardens.

Perhaps. It doesn't really matter to anyone but the gardener as they're not feeding anyone outside themselves. However, on the macro scale, your belief is provably wrong. "Organic" gardening is exactly what those growers who can't affort "chemical" gardening do and it doesn't work nearly as well as the alternative.

Speaking from experience. Organic taste better as well, as any gardener who has tried both can tell you.

I garden too and what you're describing has nothing to do with organic vs conventional. It has all to do with storage and sugar-to-starch conversion and confirmation bias.

Again, I think you are confusing gardening with farming.

So, farming has nothing to do with gardening? :confused: I guess it must have sprouted out of Zeus' head? Perhaps you're confusing gardening with fantasy?
 
I thought the main point was that right now, it is possible to reduce fossil fuel use, if you can afford it.

MY point in bringing economics in was to illustrate that in general, you can't pay substantially more for an item and "be greener or have a smaller carbon footprint", because there is a trail of carbon emissions following the dollars spent.

Got the "Have a cup of ....." avatar, hey?:D
 
MY point in bringing economics in was to illustrate that in general, you can't pay substantially more for an item and "be greener or have a smaller carbon footprint", because there is a trail of carbon emissions following the dollars spent.

I see your point.

Ahh, but what if the majority of money goes to people who produce without fossil fuels? Like some backwater religious group that makes everything by hand, the old fashion way, which makes it expensive, AND doesn't pollute much? Then the only carbon trail is your giant ass SUV driving there and back, right?
 
I see your point.

Ahh, but what if the majority of money goes to people who produce without fossil fuels? Like some backwater religious group that makes everything by hand, the old fashion way, which makes it expensive, AND doesn't pollute much? Then the only carbon trail is your giant ass SUV driving there and back, right?

Ohyeah. There are exceptions and some of them are troubling. The most obvious one is the "substinence farmers" in underdeveloped countries who sell their products via sending them by jet-freight to us.

But I still like simple ways of looking at things, it cuts through a lot of bs.

And by the way, I am not at all convinced of the merits of "carbon neutral" and all that, just enjoy analyzing what it implies and how often people get it completely wrong, often in rather amusing ways.:D
 

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