• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Edinburgh's ghost mystery solved :-)

Chimpy

Scholar
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Messages
70
From today's London Times:
City is haunted by dry spirits, says ghostbuster
By A Scotland Correspondent



A SCIENTIFIC ghost hunt in Edinburgh has yielded reports of apparitions, phantom footsteps, unexplained cold spots and unseen hands, it is revealed today.
Richard Wiseman, who led the study of an underground network of streets beneath the city’s Royal Mile, admitted: “Something quite odd was going on.”



But he does not believe that any of the experiences — which affected most of 200 volunteers — were paranormal. He is convinced that hauntings are caused by a combination of environmental and psychological factors.

The investigation focused on Mary King’s Close — a warren of streets sealed off from the outside world more than 200 years ago. Today the site is maze of dark narrow alleys and the remains of houses.

Mary King’s Close became entombed when Edinburgh’s Royal Exchange — now the City Chambers — was built in 1753. The top floors of the houses were demolished and the lower floors incorporated into the new foundations.

The rooms of many houses still exist, and according to some reports, so do a number of their former residents.

Professor Wisemen sent groups of volunteers to four locations without telling them that only two had a strong reputation for being haunted. The aim was to compare reports from the different sites.

About 70 per cent of those visiting the haunted locations reported unusual phenomena. In contrast, only 48 per cent of people exploring the locations not reputed to be haunted had spooky experiences.

At the most haunted site, where a sinister figure in black has been seen repeatedly, something strange happened to more than 80 per cent of the volunteers.

“There was a massive difference between the locations,” said Professor Wiseman, from the University of Hertfordshire. “Sometimes people just felt very cold, but there were some quite extreme experiences — feelings of being watched, being touched and having clothing pulled, apparitions of people and animals, and footsteps. I was really surprised at the extent of the experiences.”

Probably the strangest report was from a volunteer who complained about being stared at by a member of Professor Wiseman’s team from the end of a corridor. No one was there.

Experiments showed that the two “haunted” locations were significantly less humid than the other sites. This can generate a feeling of coldness, Professor Wiseman said.

There was also evidence of “infrasound” — low frequency sound waves that are too deep for the human ear to pick up, but are known to produce feelings of unease. In the most haunted site there was a continuous infrasound rumble, possibly caused by overhead traffic.

A psychological test found that people rated photographs of the haunted locations as significantly more “ghostly” than those of the other sites. This suggested subtle visual features, such as shape, lighting, or the presence of doorways, may be eliciting a sense of fear.

Professor Wiseman said: “It could be that the ghosts were down there, but I think the explanation is primarily psychological.” He said the findings might shed light on “sick building” syndrome — unexplained feelings of uneasiness or sickness associated with certain buildings.

The results will be submitted to the British Journal of Psychology.
 
I'm glad Wiseman has released his findings, particularly since they seem to go against his expectations.

Based solely on the article, though, it seems premature for him to dismiss the phenomena as non-paranormal. Given what appears to be a significant difference between experiences at the "haunted" and "control" locations, I think he needs to do more before pooh-poohing what others say.

The alternative explanations seem plausible, but if they are legit, then further experiments incorporating them need to be done.

Or am I way off?
 
If you're asking me if there's such a thing as a ghost you're asking the wrong person. Ghosts are about as real as elves, pixies and gremlins. In other words, there is no such thing as a ghost.
 
I wasn't really asking anything. I don't believe ghosts exist, either.

However, Wiseman performed an experiment meant to disprove hauntings at those rooms in Edinburgh. It failed to do that. If anything, by itself it strengthened the idea that the hauntings are real.

To demonstrate otherwise he needs to do more than add post hoc hypotheses.
 
Why do you think that Wiseman was trying to disprove anything? He sent groups of people to different locations, some of them with a reputation of being haunted, others 'neutral'. He observes what comes out of this experiment, and - maybe to his surprise - the 'haunted' places appear to be more haunted than the neutral ones, 70 % versus 48 %. Pretty impressive, actually, that almost fifty per cent of all buildings seem to be 'haunted' when you make this kind of test, and I bet that the superstitious won't stress this piece of empirical 'fact'.
So far he's only managed to isolate a phenomenon that needs an explanation: a correlation between alleged haunted houses and the feeling of being haunted. That in itself doesn't strengthen anything.

You are right when you say that, "To demonstrate otherwise he needs to do more than add post hoc hypotheses." And he is looking into that. So far he didn't catch a single ghost, but he has other hypotheses that just might (that's the point of a hypothesis) explain why people have the sensations they have in these places. Now he continues his research to find the truth.
 
Points taken, dann. I'll retract that he was trying to disprove anything.

I suppose I based my reaction at least partly on the title of the thread.
 
Garrette said:
I suppose I based my reaction at least partly on the title of the thread.

I apologize for that, I was merely sticking my tongue firmly in my cheek :-) (since there were never any ghosts to start with...)
 
I find 'apparition sightings' to be the most intriguing of all 'phenomena'. The feelings of 'inexplicable fear' or of being watched or touched are usually readily explained. I would imagine that the volunteers in this study all knew something of the history or the reputation of the premises, with many 'expecting' something to happen.

Over the years I've occasionally thought I've seen an apparition that turns out to be lighting, natural or artifical, or to be something silly like a tree or an animal. How can we test a sighting?
 
Garrette said:
Based solely on the article, though, it seems premature for him to dismiss the phenomena as non-paranormal. Given what appears to be a significant difference between experiences at the "haunted" and "control" locations, I think he needs to do more before pooh-poohing what others say.

I've yet to see any positive evidence for the paranormal. No one has yet demonstrated that there is life after death.
 
dann said:
Why do you think that Wiseman was trying to disprove anything? He sent groups of people to different locations, some of them with a reputation of being haunted, others 'neutral'. He observes what comes out of this experiment, and - maybe to his surprise - the 'haunted' places appear to be more haunted than the neutral ones, 70 % versus 48 %. Pretty impressive, actually, that almost fifty per cent of all buildings seem to be 'haunted' when you make this kind of test,



Hang on a sec, hang on a sec, hang on a sec. Groups of volunteers were sent to 4 locations with 2 allegedly being haunted. But I bet you they knew beforehand (i.e they were told by Wiseman) that some of these locations were allegedly haunted. So your conclusion that people find almost 50% of all buildings haunted is utterly absurd.

Do your own experiment. Try sending people to a building, but don't mention that it might be haunted. Ask them if they felt it was haunted afterwards (or better still just ask them if they felt anything at all and allow them to elaborate). Now try sending people to a building but with the prior suggestion that it is (or might be) allegedly haunted, then ask the same questions afterwards. You would be remarkably naive to imagine that the results will be the same!

And on this note the experiment could have been conducted better. The same people should have visited all 4 locations and told beforehand that 2 of them were haunted. I bet if they were asked to pick out the haunted locations the figures would be much more impressive.

and I bet that the superstitious won't stress this piece of empirical 'fact'.

Because it's not relevant for the reasons I've expressed above.

So far he's only managed to isolate a phenomenon that needs an explanation: a correlation between alleged haunted houses and the feeling of being haunted. That in itself doesn't strengthen anything.

No, not just a feeling. There have been reports of apparitions, phantom footsteps, unexplained cold spots and unseen hands. Don't ignore facts which are inconvenient to your skeptical hypothesis.
 
Chimpy said:
I've yet to see any positive evidence for the paranormal. No one has yet demonstrated that there is life after death.

And certainly no-one has demonstrated that there isn't.
 
BTW, just to make it clear. Even if it were to be found that some locations are genuinely haunted (by which I mean there is some anomalous phenomena taking place), I don't think this, in and of itself, would give any evidence for an afterlife. No more than say something like telepathy.
 
I've been down to the vaults used for these experiments, on one of Edinburgh's numerous Ghost tours. I must say that they're quite cosy after the biting Autumn wind.

Despite the host's attempts to scare us all, even my notoriously superstitious girlfriend and her nervous 10 year-old son couldn't raise a hackle between them.

Remove the dozens of tourists, brights lights and comfy warmth and I'm pretty sure even the hardened sceptic's imagination would run riot, though.

The infrasound idea has been noted and proven in there before, with a direct correlation between the prevalence of this entirely normal (as opposed to paranormal) phenomena and the locations where anomalous activity was recorded.

Case closed, I think.
 
pmckean said:
I've been down to the vaults used for these experiments, on one of Edinburgh's numerous Ghost tours. I must say that they're quite cosy after the biting Autumn wind.

Here's something purely anecdotal :-) My baby bro is studying in Edinburgh. Undergrads get bored easily and so him and three friends went on a ghost tour, just for laughs. The report back was that it's a hilarious experience and nothing spooky anywhere. For my part, I don't mind being in big, damp places on my own, mostly because as an archaeologist I've spent plenty of time in tombs and catacombs, running around blissfully on my own. Plus I'm now in the UK and on my way home I always pass by a quaint British graveyard. Hell actually I pass by more than one, one is just on the entrance path to Marks and Spencer :-) I do enjoy sauntering around British graveyards as I find the inscriptions really interesting. No ghostly activity there either. Never encountered ghosts in libraries either, despite various accounts of lost, dead students or bitter, failed scientists haunting these hallowed places.

Maybe I scare them ghosts?
 
pmckean said:
The infrasound idea has been noted and proven in there before, with a direct correlation between the prevalence of this entirely normal (as opposed to paranormal) phenomena and the locations where anomalous activity was recorded.

Case closed, I think.

  • How do you know that ghosts don't cause the infrasound rather than vice versa?
  • How does infrasound explain people seeing apparitions, ghostly hands etc?
  • How do you know it's a direct correlation rather than indirect correlation between the sound and the allegedly paranormal phenomena?
    [/list=a]

    Case closed? I think not. Your skeptics beliefs are blinding you to alternative possibilities.
 
Chimpy said:
I've yet to see any positive evidence for the paranormal. No one has yet demonstrated that there is life after death.

What do you mean by 'no one has yet demonstrated' ..... are you psychic to know this? :) Perhaps you mean 'No one has yet demonstrated that there is life after death to me (i.e. Chimpy) ' :)

Why can't skeptics just say 'I don't know... the claims don't convince me, so I doubt it'
 
Short answer so I can go back to my Neolithic...
There was some German dude whose name escapes me at midnight who tried to find a soul and by extension show life after death. Failed.

If you have any citations from peer reviewed journals showing that there is life after death, please pass them along. Until then I stand by what I said. And your argument borders on a logical fallacy. No one has demonstrated an atom to me, but there is plenty of scientific literature to back it up.

Now, back to my work.
 
Chimpy said:
Short answer so I can go back to my Neolithic...
There was some German dude whose name escapes me at midnight who tried to find a soul and by extension show life after death. Failed.

He failed??! :eek: Must prove the non-existence of the soul then!

If you have any citations from peer reviewed journals showing that there is life after death, please pass them along.

Well, let's start with the evidence from reincarnation shall we? Read the following then get back to me:

Ian Stevenson "American children who claim to remember previous lives," J. Nervous
and Mental Disease 171 (1983) pp. 742-748


Ian Stevenson "Three new cases of the reincarnation type in Sri Lanka with written
records made before verification," J. Sci. Exploration 2, No. 2 (1988)
pp. 217-238


Ian Stevenson "Cases of the reincarnation type in northern India with birthmarks and
birth defects," J. Sci. Exploration 12, No. 2 (1998), pp. 259-293.


Antonia Mills, "A replication study: Three cases of children in
northern India who are said to remember a previous life," J. Sci.
Exploration 3, No. 2 (1989) pp. 133-184


Antonia Mills, "Moslem cases of the reincarnation type in northern
India: A test of the hypothesis of imposed identification, Part I:
Analysis of 26 cases," J. Sci. Exploration 4, No. 2 (1990) pp. 171-188


Antonia Mills, "Moslem cases of the reincarnation type in northern
India: A test of the hypothesis of imposed identification, Part II:
Reports of three cases," J. Sci. Exploration 4, No. 2 (1990) pp.
189-202


Jurgen Keil, "New cases in Burma, Thailand, and Turkey: A limited
field study replication of some aspects of Ian Stevenson's work," J.
Sci. Exploration 5, No. 1 (1991) pp. 27-59


Erlunder Haraldsson, "Children claiming past-life memories: Four cases
in Sri Lanka," J. Sci. Exploration 5, No. 2 (1991) pp. 233-261

Until then I stand by what I said. And your argument borders on a logical fallacy. No one has demonstrated an atom to me, but there is plenty of scientific literature to back it up.

Now, back to my work. [/B]

No-one has demonstarated life after death, but there are philosophical reasons and evidence to back it up.
 
Is this Edinburgh information new research ? I remember Wiseman talking about a similar investigation of the Edinburgh vaults a couple of years ago (I’m not sure if this is the same place referred to above?). This also had slightly unexpected results for Wiseman, a majority of people choosing (if I recall correctly) the two reportedly most haunted vaults from choice of several …...

...... this lead to Wiseman talking about getting funding to build a fake haunted building (I think they built a computer virtual reality one instead) to see what ordinary members of the public would sense or feel from creepy looking virtual building rooms by changing height of ceiling, light levels etc. ....... I really don’t see how this could hope to advance anything, most of us interested in the scientific evidence for psi already know that people can get very carried away imagining things and especially when they expect it. This does not rule out subtle psi effects could be easily masked by sensory images etc. or imagination etc. .....so I often fail to understand what Wiseman hopes to achieve in some of his experiments.

The funny thing is, even if he does find some psychological link between something visual and sense of being spooked ........if believers requested it was replicated, I suspect many of those psychological explanations would fail to be replicated when increasingly tighter controls were added ;) ....
 

Back
Top Bottom