Economic Ignoramus has a question

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I know nothing about economics.

I am paying off my home and I have never missed a payment. Both my wife and I are presently steadily employed. We purchased our house 8 years ago. Had it built in a new development and got the mortgage through the corporate builder. The mortgage was sold later. I have refinanced once and built a pool as well as payed off a car loan. I have a low interest rate.

My home at the point of the refinance was valued at about 150,000 dollars more then I paid for it. I did not refinance for that much and presently with the decline in home values it is worth about what I owe on it. If I could sell it I might make a small profit or break even.

My question is on the current economic turmoil.

If say a crazy person became President and took over all the banks that are failing and decided to just mail out all of the mortgages to the people who last payed on them so that those people owned their home free and clear, how crazy would that be? What would be the consequences? What would be the disaster?

Let's call it an economic stimulus. Millions of families would now own their homes free and clear and not have to make a monthly payment. No tax payer money would be used except for the mailing costs.

Is it fair to everyone? No. But what exactly else is being proposed that is fair to everyone? I would not care if I was not one of the lucky few to win this "socialist" lottery. Even if my neighbor who went with the bigger house and mortgage benefited and I didn't. So what?

What about the banks? Well they can refinance to these people for say a government regulated limit of a percentage of the value of the home. A small percentage and only one refinance at a time. Meaning you can't refinance until the first one is paid off and only for a very low fixed rate. These people can also decide to sell their new fully owned homes and move to a different home but would have to put up a down payment 80% instead of only 20% or less to buy the new home.

Okay. Tear it apart and tell me why. Just remember I'm an economic ignoramus and really don't understand why this would be any crazier then anything else currently proposed.
 
Well the first problem would be that first you said you wanted to give these people the homes free and clear and then it appears (unless I read it wrong) that they now owe money again on it and can refinance if they want...

Anyways the problem with this is that it wouldn't solve a large portion of the problem, being all the money the banks lose out on as a result of people not having to pay anything for these homes. As a result the banks would have no money and would not be able to lend money to encourage business growth.

I thought of something along the same lines though so let me share my somewhat similar plan with you and then they can rip both of us apart :D

Currently the banks have all these homes that they can't sell and that they are getting no money for. In addition we have all these people and families who don't have a home and could certainly use one. So I propose that we sell these homes to people for a fraction of their estimated value.

Have the banks sell these homes for say 1/4 of their value to needy families. They can do background and financial checks before selling to a family to ensure they meet certain requirements similar to low income rent apartments. In addition to this the government matches the amount the families pay to the bank. so in the end the banks get 1/2 the value of these homes making back much of their lost money and families get houses to live in. This way the banks get money and can continue lending to businesses but not entirely from the taxpayers wallet.

And those figures, the 1/4 value and such are just examples. It could be 1/3 and then be matched by the gov so the banks get 2/3 the value of the home. The exact amount could be figured out by someone more qualified than I, but you get the idea.
 
Well the first problem would be that first you said you wanted to give these people the homes free and clear and then it appears (unless I read it wrong) that they now owe money again on it and can refinance if they want...

Anyways the problem with this is that it wouldn't solve a large portion of the problem, being all the money the banks lose out on as a result of people not having to pay anything for these homes. As a result the banks would have no money and would not be able to lend money to encourage business growth.

I thought of something along the same lines though so let me share my somewhat similar plan with you and then they can rip both of us apart :D

Currently the banks have all these homes that they can't sell and that they are getting no money for. In addition we have all these people and families who don't have a home and could certainly use one. So I propose that we sell these homes to people for a fraction of their estimated value.

Have the banks sell these homes for say 1/4 of their value to needy families. They can do background and financial checks before selling to a family to ensure they meet certain requirements similar to low income rent apartments. In addition to this the government matches the amount the families pay to the bank. so in the end the banks get 1/2 the value of these homes making back much of their lost money and families get houses to live in. This way the banks get money and can continue lending to businesses but not entirely from the taxpayers wallet.

And those figures, the 1/4 value and such are just examples. It could be 1/3 and then be matched by the gov so the banks get 2/3 the value of the home. The exact amount could be figured out by someone more qualified than I, but you get the idea.

Thank you for responding.

That is a better plan also in my opinion then anything I've seen proposed thus far.

My thing though is that these banks never really put up and real reserves to purchase these homes in the first place. They made an entry in a computer and purchased these homes through loosely regulated fractional reserve banking techniques. Some of these builders like the one I dealt with gave out the loans and then sold the mortgage later. They took the money and ran. What's the fraction now? Are the banks really losing anything they ever really had? How did they acquire all of these homes they are now demanding payment and in some cases outrageous interest rates? When I ask how I mean where are the reserves? And not just other notes they hold. Where is their initial real value in the first place to acquire all of these homes? Gold? Silver? Or just other notes?

Now I understand this is debated but I don't really care about the banks right now. Even so my plan facilitate a way for them to stay in business if they so wish to. They can also get back into savings. Remember that?

And what are these banks doing right now with all of the money we have already given them? And where did all of that money come from? Do we just keep printing paper or making computer entries?

The land and home have a tangible value. Let's start with that and give it to some of the people instead of the banks who can't live in all of these houses they hold.

In your plan how will a needy family meet "certain requirements"? Who makes those requirements?

Take the homes from the banks who got greedy and thought that they had the power to collect blood from a stone somewhere down the line and give them to the families who can actually live in them. These families would have something of value and not have to meet a payment every month. Would that not be an economic stimulus?
 
I don't understand either of those plans.

Remember that the banks make money off the interest. They aren't in the business of owning real estate. They make money off the debt. That's their asset.

Who would make the banks erase the debt? And if they did, it would instantaneously destroy an enormous amount of wealth.
 
I'm afraid most of your post I can't say much about as I don't know how the banks initially aquired all these homes and property.

When I was initially discussing this with friends of mine for a political debate on campus I had suggested just giving the homes to families. It is hard to know what is really going on as there is so much misinformation available both online and from big media. But from what I understand (and I'm sure its immensly more complicated than what I'm about to say) banks had all these properties, which they sold to families. At this point all of this is assets in the form of land and housing or accounts receivable. When all these families couldn't pay and these homes were forclosed their value dropped and thus the assets of these banks dropped with it. So now these banks have a serious problem because they maintain all of their debts and liabilities but have far less assets. So now their ability to make loans to others is severly diminished. As a result people and businesses have a much much harder time qualifying for loans they need. This means less people buying homes, cars, and starting new businesses or expanding old ones. This is bad for the economy and results in further layoff etc. etc.

So that is why we decided it might be best to do a middle ground by giving families these homes but also getting some of that money back to the banks so they can loan money again. Of course this all assumes the banks won't use the money for executive bonuses and new jet planes :rolleyes:

As for the certain requirements they would be something like if you make over so much a year you don't qualify to do this discounted home buying. The need for these requirements is that if it were not regulated this way it would allow the rich to buy up large amounts of property and homes at a discount and partly paid for by the american tax dollar. Hopefully this would ensure that those who can afford to pay the normal amount for homes do so, while those who can't afford homes would be able to get them this way.

Edit: I'm not entirely sure how it works but it seems to me if the banks don't already own the property they are selling to a family then when they provide a loan to a family so they can buy it from whoever does own it the bank is essentially buying the home and telling the family they can buy it from the bank by providing payments slowly over a long period of time. So whether the bank literally owned the home beforehand doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me.
 
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I'm afraid most of your post I can't say much about as I don't know how the banks initially aquired all these homes and property.

When I was initially discussing this with friends of mine for a political debate on campus I had suggested just giving the homes to families. It is hard to know what is really going on as there is so much misinformation available both online and from big media. But from what I understand (and I'm sure its immensly more complicated than what I'm about to say) banks had all these properties, which they sold to families. At this point all of this is assets in the form of land and housing or accounts receivable. When all these families couldn't pay and these homes were forclosed their value dropped and thus the assets of these banks dropped with it. So now these banks have a serious problem because they maintain all of their debts and liabilities but have far less assets. So now their ability to make loans to others is severly diminished. As a result people and businesses have a much much harder time qualifying for loans they need. This means less people buying homes, cars, and starting new businesses or expanding old ones. This is bad for the economy and results in further layoff etc. etc.

So that is why we decided it might be best to do a middle ground by giving families these homes but also getting some of that money back to the banks so they can loan money again. Of course this all assumes the banks won't use the money for executive bonuses and new jet planes :rolleyes:

As for the certain requirements they would be something like if you make over so much a year you don't qualify to do this discounted home buying. The need for these requirements is that if it were not regulated this way it would allow the rich to buy up large amounts of property and homes at a discount and partly paid for by the american tax dollar. Hopefully this would ensure that those who can afford to pay the normal amount for homes do so, while those who can't afford homes would be able to get them this way.

Edit: I'm not entirely sure how it works but it seems to me if the banks don't already own the property they are selling to a family then when they provide a loan to a family so they can buy it from whoever does own it the bank is essentially buying the home and telling the family they can buy it from the bank by providing payments slowly over a long period of time. So whether the bank literally owned the home beforehand doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me.

Well when you go to buy a home most people only have a fraction of what the home is being sold for. So the people go to the bank and ask for a loan for the rest. I'm sure you understand this much. The bank buys the home from the seller and then holds the deed to the home until the buyer pays off the loan with interest to the bank. Lots of interest.

How I understand it to work is that the bank really only has a small percentage of reserves in relation to the amount of the loans they are giving out. In other words the bank never had all of or even most of the money to loan out in the first place. They are allowed to loan out something like 10 times what they actually have. So they don't go back into their vault and buy that home with actual reserves (gold for instance) that they are holding. They just make an entry in a computer. They buy that home with money they are licensed to create but the buyer pays it back to them with real money earned with real labor plus the interest.

Homes are valuable. Land is valuable. The labor of hard working people is valuable.

These loans are paper and computer entries created out of nothing. The banks and this debt are worthless. To think that they thought they could actually collect on all of these loans with interest somewhere down the line is mind boggling to me. They had to know a long time ago that it just wasn't all there to collect in the first place and that someone would be left holding the bag. They just didn't think it would be their bank I guess.

Again you can be given a license to collect blood from a stone but that doesn't mean you'll actually be able to do it.

Why keep it up? The whole system is seriously flawed from the get go.
 
If they didn't have the money for the loans how did they buy these homes from the sellers in the first place?

I would agree with you though. Many of my beliefs and ideas for how the world should work are in stark contrast with that of everyone else lol. For instance I think there is a serious problem with the concept of owning land and natural resources in the first place. Who originally gained the right to own and sell these things to others? For example, if a million people were teleported to a 2nd earth like planet far far away how would they determine ownership of land or resources? No one would have any previous claim and sadly I think it would become a matter of who had more military might.
 
Force banks to sell homes at 25% value?? Would it not be easier for the banks to just rent the homes instead.
 
Gentlepersons:

Banks take in deposits from customers. Some of those deposits get sent back into circulation right away (people writing checks, for instance); some are invested for a longer period of time, in exchange for a higher interest rate. CDs are an example of that. Other moneys, while technically available to the savers at any time, are in fact not going anywhere. This would be your basic savings account.

The banks do some calculations as to how much of their liquid assets they need to have on hand to cover normal business, and they lend the rest out, plus interest. (There are also regulatory requirements as to how much of their money they need to hold as reserves.) The interest is compensation to the bank for taking the risk that the loans will not be repaid.

Some of these loans are short-term, and backed by small assets, like cars and boats. Others are larger, and are backed by larger-value, less-liquid assets like homes, commercial buildings, production machinery, and land. The bank uses some of its funds to purchase the asset; it then gives the borrower the right to use the asset as long as they (the borrower) are keeping current on payments on the loan. The bank then uses this inflow of cash from borrowers to either return money to the savers making withdrawals, or to lend out again.

In a normal economy, the bank only lends to people that have a good likelihood of paying off the loan. A certain small percentage will not; when that happens, the bank takes back the asset and sells it for hopefully some reasonable percentage of the remaining loan amount. If they make money, they're ahead; more often, they lose a little money but not so much as to offset the amount they're making in interest payments from all their other loans. (Are you with me so far?)

So, the theoretical transaction looks like this:
Home value of $100,000.
Homebuyer puts up $30,000.
Bank puts up $70,000 (principal amount).
Mortgage at 8% annual interest rate, term of note is 20 years. (Note: I am going to simplify the carp out of all interest calculations for the rest of this example; but the principle remains the same.) In other words, bank is charging 8% of the principal as its compensation for laying out the money all at once, and getting it back over 20 years.
The buyer (borrower) is now making a monthly mortgage payment of $583.34--$7000 annually--to "own" his home. When the bank receives that payment, it credits most of it to the interest due, and only some to the balance on the house. But, however small the "principal payment" might be, it represents new equity the buyer has in the house. (The buyer has the option of making additional "extra principal payments" that go directly to the amount of the house he owns, rather than the interest on the loan. That can make a huge difference in how much you pay in interest over the lifespan of the loan.) The bank owns the difference, and if the property is foreclosed, that debt is what the bank needs to cover with the net proceeds of selling the house.

Two things you probably noticed immediately: The total interest over 20 years is just about the size of the principal; and that the bank gets its interest income faster than it lets the buyer gain equity in the home. That's on purpose; its part of the bank's protection against ending up owning a house that is worth less than the money still owed from its purchase.

So, in a normal mode, the bank takes that $7000 a year for 20 years in exchange for lending $70,000 up front. This makes enough money back that the bank can afford to run its business, pay its employees, pay interest to its depositers, etc.

Okay, we finally get to What Went Wrong in the recent past.
1) Banks stopped treating real property as an asset. They moved instead into the business of re-selling the mortgages to other investors as "asset-backed securities". Because they no longer faced the risk of being caught owning a house rather than a stream of income from mortgage payments, they focussed on the money they could make from fees involved with the lending process. This gave them an incentive to make more loans, since the fee dollars are paid up front.
2) Homeowners stopped looking at houses as their primary savings. Instead of trying to increase their equity (the amount of the home's value they actually own), they focussed on either re-selling the house a few years later for a higher value--home prices were rising fast and steadily--or on maintaining a steady amount of equity and borrowing against the current value for spending money. (This is the infamous "cash out refinance", where you take out a new mortgage which reflects the current market value of (in our example) $120,000, pay off the old mortgage, and buy a vacation and a bigscreen TV with the extra money. ) So the same home is now supporting a larger amount of debt.
3) Underpinning both of these moves was an implicit belief that Home Values Only Go Up. Banks and mortgage companies were willing to lend more, and to less safe borrowers, because they believed that they (or actually, the investors buying those mortgages as securitized debt) could turn around and sell the house for more than was owed on it. The homeowners believed that, if they had to move or couldn't make the larger payments over time, they could sell the home for enough to cover the new, larger mortgage and get them back some equity.

This created a scenario where the people making the loans didn't have as much incentive to really check if the borrowers would go for the money; the investors couldn't, but thought they didn't have to because of the inflation of home values; and the borrowers were sure they weren't taking a big risk. Everyone in the game had a vested interest in rising home values--and that led to assessors who gave larger valuations getting more business than the cautious ones. The bank wanted to make the loan, so it could make its fees; the homeowner wanted to spend that chunk of cash.

But real estate prices don't always go up; like any other commodity, homes reflect supply and demand. When an area has a growing number of residents, there is more demand for housing, which pushes prices up. When prospective buyers have more money to spend (say, from their software company stock), they will bid higher to get the house as opposed to looking for another. The assessor can thus find higher sales prices for "comparable homes" to validate the inflated value--which, since that refinance is technically a sale and a purchase, will then itself support the higher price quoted for the next home. This became a spiral of increasing home prices based upon nothing but the belief that home prices would go up.

But then the banks and investment firms that had bought those mortgage-backed securities needed to be able to re-sell them. To do that, they had to know what the backing houses were actually worth; and in many cases, the securities had been re-package and resold, in some cases to the actual banks that originated the loans. Suddenly the question of how likely the buyers were to repay became a real issue again; and the news wasn't good.
When the economy began to stutter, the flow of eager buyers vanished, and the less-capable buyers started defaulting. The mortgages went from being a stream of future income to a physical building in a development--and those rosy market prices turned out not to be close to valid. The banks /investors/re-investors were suddenly holding "assets" on their books that weren't worth what they thought they were.
The homeowners who took out the refinances and/or home equity loans found out that they couldn't resell their house for enough to cover the mortgage--or, that they got out of the house with less money than the downpayment they'd put in. They either didn't buy a home but turned to renting, or they bought a much smaller, less expensive home.

Now the cycle of pricing-based-on-comparable-sales has turned to a downward spiral. Banks and mortgage firms are selling at lower prices, because they don't want (and can't afford) to do maintenance on the property; they price the house to sell immediately, to get it off their hands. They will have to swallow the loss on the interest income they expected to realize, and may have to sell for little more than the principal outstanding--and perhaps less than that. Other would-be buyers start looking for bargains, instead of paying a premium to buy "before the price goes up more". Houses stay unsold, or drop their prices in order to sell. People are no longer seeing increased home values to borrow against or cash out; in some markets, they find themselves "under water", that is, they owe more on their mortgage than the home can be sold for. If they sell the house, they'll have to actually pay the bank the difference out of their savings.

But the bank is losing money, too. Remember, they were expecting mortgage payments including that lovely interest for 20 years; now they get a lump-sum of just the principal. The bank has to "write down" the value of the asset for the difference. Multiply that by enough mortgages, and the bank is in trouble. Remember, banking is based in part on the idea that Everybody Doesn't Want Their Money Back Right Away. But if depositors start fleeing a bank they think is unsound, the bank has to give them their cash back; and that means selling some of its assets. Which, since it has to be a quick sale, contributes to the downward spiral on prices.

The fees the banks/mortgage brokers were happily collecting are somewhat based on the amount of the loan; lower values = less income per transaction. And fewer transactions, as the people "underwater" decide not to sell, and the people who would like take out loans against their home's increased value have no increased value to borrow against. So the lenders are being pinched; they have to lay people off. More layoffs = fewer people able to buy; and more homeowners defaulting on their loans.

In other words, part of what is going on here is that a lot of the "value" that people were getting actually money for was completely imaginary. It worked for as long as other people believed it. But now the child has shouted that the Emperor has no clothes, and the bottom has fallen out of the market.

The problem with 'giving people their homes outright' is that it screw the depositors whose money the banks invested--not all that wisely in some cases--into lending to buy those homes. If the bank loses its right to those homes, it can't repay its depositors.

It is rewarding people who bought homes they couldn't really afford with a gift of the value of the property, by taking the savings of people who had money in the bank that made the loan. That's tremendously unjust. (BTW, I think most of the 'solutions' discussed have this same flaw, just not as openly.) The profligate--those who lied or misled on their loan applications; those who bet they could refinance for more before their balloon mortgage got to the big payments; the people who used their home as an ATM rather than an investment in their own future; and the people who bought homes to "flip" them for a big return--represent a large portion of the past-due mortgages. The prudent savers whose money was used for those loans should not be punished for being prudent.

I hope this offered some insight, Miss Kitt
 
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For as long as the system worked all the numbers were just that, numbers on a piece of paper or a computer screen and they bore little relationship to reality. The snag came at the "emporer's new clothes" moment where there was a realisation that in fact the numbers, in the real world, meant nowt.

Having seen today's figures for the latest RBS bailout where the UK Government is underwriting £300bn+ of "toxic assets" these paper numbers are being converted into "real" money at the expense of the tax payer "because the banks can't be allowed to fail". I have to admit there is a large of part of me that says "nationalise them and then default and let them all go hang". Won't happen and so we'll end up paying for airware for generations to come and the only people who won't fail are the banks.

Steve
 
Having seen today's figures for the latest RBS bailout where the UK Government is underwriting £300bn+ of "toxic assets" these paper numbers are being converted into "real" money at the expense of the tax payer "because the banks can't be allowed to fail". I have to admit there is a large of part of me that says "nationalise them and then default and let them all go hang". Won't happen and so we'll end up paying for airware for generations to come and the only people who won't fail are the banks.

Well,... yeah, probably.

There's a reason for that, although you might not like it.

First, the "banks" are corporations. They're piles of paper. They're not people. They don't have minds, they don't have feelings, and they can't make bad decisions. It's the people who run the banks who made the mistakes, and it's the people who run the banks that can, and should, be punished for it. Why punish the paper?

The second thing is that, despite the failures of the people at the bank, the bank itself -- the paper -- provides a very important service that is absolutely necessary to the smooth running of the economy. No less necessary than roads, or food production, or manufacturing. You don't want to prevent the banks -- the papers -- from being able to provide that service, which in turn means you want to make it possible for the people who run the banks to continue to do what they have to do to allow the paper to continue.

Of course, there's nothing that says that the people who continue to run the banks need to be the same people who were making all the mistakes in the first place. But you want to be careful about how wildly you swing the axe, because running a bank is a tricky job.

Perhaps an analogy will help. Let's say that, for whatever reason, the people in charge at the local hospital have been absolutely incompetent -- even criminally so. Patients getting mistreated, funds going missing, equipment not getting needed maintenance, the works. At some point, conditions get so bad that the local villagers storm the hospital with torches and pitchforks.

Now what? While the hospital management may have been a disaster, you certainly need something to provide medical care in the community. You can't just burn the building down. You can't even conjure up a new building, since those are very expensive. Similarly, while it may be expensive to repair the broken equipment and to order new ones if necessary, you can't just do without the equipment.

And, most importantly, you can't run the hospital yourself. It takes a lot of people with a lot of training to run the hospital. You probably can't even replace the entire staff in a reasonable timeframe.

Yes, certainly, some people will have to go. The hospital administrators, the top doctors, the department heads. But there's already a world-wide nursing shortage -- where will you find 200 nurses, including nurses with the experience to be supervisors?
 
Miss_Kitt,

I really dont understand this constant blaming of people who took out bad loans, it is totally up to the bank to ensure that they give out loans that have a good change of repayment, after all the risk involved in this process is alreay accepted in the interest required on a loan.

If you put out adverts for cheap loans and give them to all the people who show up asking for them ok, but factor this into your accounts when you give them the money, I cant stress enough that this is the fault of the banks.

People who take out loans from banks are NOT responsible for keeping the banks afloat, it is the banks responsibility to earmark the debtors with a realistic level of risk, and deny/charge them accordingly.

People did not have to lie on their loan forms to be able to refinance or get a mortgage, they were giving these things away irresponsibly, fractional reserve banking with pathetic regulations.
 
Interesting contrast inthe figures from Lloyds Bank group this morning. For years now LloydsTSB had been thought of as a takeover target because it was too staid and traditional and ought to make more money. That part of the business has turned a profit. Snag is that HBOS which was everything that Lloyds wasn't and which Lloyds took over (essintially at the behest of the Government to stop another crisis) has lost £10.8bn of which £9.9bn were the result of bad loans. It also transpires that customers pulled their money out of HBOS to the tune of £20bn.

Steve
 
Nicely detailed post, Miss Kitt.

Miss Kitt describes the scenario wherein the depositors are the ones who put up the money to be lent. The description extends to the mortgage backed securities. Investors bought them: individuals, 401k plans, pension plans, etc. That means you and I now "own" these investments. Give away the asset, and you start to wipe out the investors - US.

CT
 
Miss Kitt: Perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly. People deposit money in the bank in a savings account. The banks use this money to loan out to others for things such as home loans. Thus to give the homes away to people, or in my suggestion to pay 1/2 market value for them (via 1/4 for people buying the homes and 1/4 matched by the government), it is taking money from the people who deposited money in savings.

I really don't understand that. The people who are not involed in these home issues are just that, not involved. It was my understanding that all banks are insured up to something like $100,000. Therefor I do not see what this has to do with people who put money into savings that are not involved in the home selling/buying. You said these banks are trying to sell these homes fast because the ownership and maintenance would be too great an expense that they do not want. So they have had to sell the homes for less. Currently these homes are sitting there, unsold, collecting dust. The bank is getting no money from this and people without homes certainly aren't benefiting either.

I doubt many of the people who bought these homes or refinanced understood the situation. I would guess that it was largly the banks explaining how things work, what would happen, and the values of these homes to the buyers. After all these are the experts, not the working mom. It is also the banks that chose to perform this service to people, the lending, because they believed the risk was worth the potential reward. Risk is not risk if you can have the government and the taxpayers bail you out when you lose. I bet many of those homeowners don't understand why their home was suddenly worth less than they were told it was either. So I again do not understand why so much blame gets put on the homeowners rather than the business.

Nonetheless we need these banks. Therefor I don't understand how any of the other current plans being put into operation are any better than my suggestion. And again the fraction of the home value was just an example. It could instead be done where people could buy these homes for 40% of the current market value and have the government match 40%.

This way, families who need homes get them. The banks get rid of these homes and get 80% of the market value back as money that they need badly, and the government (through the taxpayers) isn't entirely supporting the banks poor decisions.
 
...it is totally up to the bank to ensure that they give out loans that have a good change of repayment, after all the risk involved in this process is alreay accepted in the interest required on a loan.

I can't say I agree with this statement. It is true the bank will be careful if it is being smart. But people who think, "I'll take any amount the bank will give me since I trust them not to let me borrow too much" don't get much sympathy from me.

But there's also predatory lending. I don't hang with that either, and to an extent people can be victims of that.
 
[Apologies to Almo, et al. This post was written right after my last, but the forum kept eating it. So it does not address some of your later questions. - CT]

Miss_Kitt,

I really dont understand this constant blaming of people who took out bad loans, it is totally up to the bank to ensure that they give out loans that have a good change of repayment, after all the risk involved in this process is alreay accepted in the interest required on a loan.
I don't want to misinterpret your statement. Are you claiming that Miss Kitt is blaming (only) the borrower for the current state of affairs? Only her last paragraph had some statements (all valid) of some borrowers' situations. But it was in support of her first and last sentences (my bolding, below).

Gentlepersons:
[snip][Homeland Insurgencies idea of the banks "giving" the house to the defaulting borrowrs] is rewarding people who bought homes they couldn't really afford with a gift of the value of the property, by taking the savings of people who had money in the bank that made the loan. That's tremendously unjust. (BTW, I think most of the 'solutions' discussed have this same flaw, just not as openly.) The profligate--those who lied or misled on their loan applications; those who bet they could refinance for more before their balloon mortgage got to the big payments; the people who used their home as an ATM rather than an investment in their own future; and the people who bought homes to "flip" them for a big return--represent a large portion of the past-due mortgages. The prudent savers whose money was used for those loans should not be punished for being prudent.
Should any of the groups she listed be rewarded in any way? Should they be relieved of their legally agreed upon debt in any way? Should that happen at the expense of the people supplying the money for the loan?

cheat3 said:
If you put out adverts for cheap loans and give them to all the people who show up asking for them ok, but factor this into your accounts when you give them the money, I cant stress enough that this is the fault of the banks.

People who take out loans from banks are NOT responsible for keeping the banks afloat, it is the banks responsibility to earmark the debtors with a realistic level of risk, and deny/charge them accordingly.

People did not have to lie on their loan forms to be able to refinance or get a mortgage, they were giving these things away irresponsibly, fractional reserve banking with pathetic regulations.
I see several separate issues in your post and while interwined, they are not the same thing.

(1) Should the banks have made every loan they did? Easy call - no. Which ones should they have made? Tougher call. There are far fewer subprime loans being made now. Is that a good situation? Not for the borrower who would pay on time but cannot qualify under current guidelines.

(2) Should the banks have had higher reserves? Absolutely. This is certainly a failure of risk management by the lenders and regulators.

(3) Once a lender is insolvent, what should happen to the property? Why reward the defaulting borrower? Why do it at the cost of a legitimate investor? The asset is owned by the lender. Should it not be just like any other asset to be liquidated for whatever you can get out of it? Why give it to the borrower?

(4) Investors take risks. If you are willing to take away the depositor's assets (or those of the investors in mortgage backed securities), why should the borrower (an investor expecting equity and/or profit on resale for the investment) not be liable for the loss as well? Why reward the borrower over the lender?

(5) Why should a borrower signing a legally agreed upon contract not be held to those terms? Why should they be "given" the home? Why take an action not in the contract at the expense of the lender and not the borrower?

Notice that I did not bring in the motive/wrongdoings of either the lender or borrower in any of these points. This is not a blame game. Which investor should have priority over the other and why? Which signator to the contract should have priority?

CT
 
The number one reason for default is not the type of loan or interest rate. It is curtailment of income. I'll say it again:
The number one reason borrowers report for defaulting on their loans is loss/lowering of income.
Even on the exotic products, over 90% of defaulting borrowers defaulted before the first interest rise. Predatory lending, no matter how prevalent it may or may not be, is not the primary cause of borrower default.

Another interesting note is that interest rates are nowhere near their historic highs. 20 years ago I had a small second lien at 16%. Ouch. Interest rates are higher for the subprime borrower than the prime borrower. People in this very thread are complaining that the banks are at fault for not being able to cover "foreseeable" losses. Where does that coverage come from? It comes from interest paid by low and high risk borrowers. It is the higher risk borrower that is legitimately paying more for the risk they represent.

[trying to keep my posts smaller in case they get eaten]

CT
 
If people treated their house like a home instead of an investment that they keep borrowing against, it might keep some of them in their homes when times are tough.

Back in 2001 I bought a house and garage on a small plot of land for 70k. It is worth 105K now. I refinanced once to change from a 30 yr 7.25% to a 15yr 5.5% loan. I will be done with payments this year. I wasn't so foolish as to keep borrowing against the equity in the house, because it is my home that I plan on staying in for a long time.

I was also lucky enough to have a decent job with a good future and no health problems that kept me from working.

Ranb
 

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