Dresden

[Jon_in_london]

60 years since the bombing of Dresden.

No big suprise that the left and right are trting to make it seem like an Allied war crime

Perhaps they fail to remember that there was a war on. And a total war at that. The simple fact is that if you were a German in Nazi Germany you were fair game- otherwise leave. Every single German man, woman and child was a potential soldier and/or contributor to the Nazi war effort. Fair game. Perhaps they also forget that Dresden was "an important railway and communications centre for Nazi forces resisting the Soviet advance from the east."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4261263.stm

Perhaps they forget but I think they know these things and that the left is trying to shame the evil imperialst west while the right pursue their neo-nazi agenda.

 

[Kerberos]

60 years since the bombing of Dresden.

No big suprise that the left and right are trting to make it seem like an Allied war crime

Perhaps they fail to remember that there was a war on.

I believe that's why they call it a war crime.

And a total war at that. The simple fact is that if you were a German in Nazi Germany you were fair game- otherwise leave.

Were Germans permitted to leave Germany? I rather doubt it, but you should feel free to correct me.

Every single German man, woman and child was a potential soldier and/or contributor to the Nazi war effort. Fair game.

Civilians are always potential contributors to the war effort, following this logic would totally erase the distinction between ordinary warfare and terorism/war crimes.

Perhaps they also forget that Dresden was "an important railway and communications centre for Nazi forces resisting the Soviet advance from the east."

Perhaps they forget it, perhaps they feel that the war was already won and the destruction was unneceaseary or perhaps they feel the communications and railway centre could have been destroyed with less civilian casaulties. I have no idea if it is so, since I'm not familiar with the details of the situation.

Perhaps they forget but I think they know these things and that the left is trying to shame the evil imperialst west while the right pursue their neo-nazi agenda.

Yeah, cause anybody who feels sad for the death of German civilians must have an ulterior motive.

 

[Ed]

I am sad for the death of anyone.

I am saddest if it is me
I am next sad if it is a family member
I am next sad if it is a friend
I am next sad if it is an acquaintance
I am next sad if it is a citizen of my town
I am next sad if it is a citizen of the US
I am next sad if it is a citizen of a country friendly to the US
I am next sad if it is a citizen of a country at war with us
I am least sad if it is a soldier waging war on us but still sad

It is entirely possible to feel sad about the people from Dresden. It just has to be viewed in this context.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Re: Re: Dresden

I believe that's why they call it a war crime.

In a total war inwhich the bombing of cities common practise by both sides? Nevermind that the Nazis started it all.

Were Germans permitted to leave Germany? I rather doubt it, but you should feel free to correct me.

Personally I dont give a crap if they were allowed to leave or not. Its a personal choice. Leave or be a target. Switzerlands' just over the border.

Civilians are always potential contributors to the war effort, following this logic would totally erase the distinction between ordinary warfare and terorism/war crimes.

The Nazis erased that distinction when they bombed Rotterdam. They anounced that they paid no heed to this distinction when they bombed Guernica befire the war had even started. Hell! the Germans were quite happy to bomb civillians in WWI- and there werent any Nazis around then, might I remind you.

Perhaps they forget it, perhaps they feel that the war was already won and the destruction was unneceaseary or perhaps they feel the communications and railway centre could have been destroyed with less civilian casaulties. I have no idea if it is so, since I'm not familiar with the details of the situation.

The war dragged on for another 3 months while god knows how many thousands of people were needlesly slaughtered and maimed dut to Nazi German intrasigence.

Yeah, cause anybody who feels sad for the death of German civilians must have an ulterior motive.

Not just German. Nazi.

/QUOTE]

 

[Interesting Ian]

60 years since the bombing of Dresden.

No big suprise that the left and right are trting to make it seem like an Allied war crime

I think it was completely disgusting. Utterly appalling and disgusting to mass murder innocent people. That's my judgement.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Re: Re: Dresden

I think it was completely disgusting. Utterly appalling and disgusting to mass murder innocent people. That's my judgement.

So you disagree with the entire Allied bombing campaign?

 

[Jon_in_london]

It is entirely possible to feel sad about the people from Dresden. It just has to be viewed in this context.

Of course its sad. Is it a war crime- given the context?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Of course its sad. Is it a war crime- given the context?

It depends who you ask. The neo-nazis protesting in Dresden definitely think so...I feel it was no different than other aerial attacks on comparable targets in Germany. The Germans bombed the Allies and the Allies bombed the Germans, such is the nature of war.

 

[Jon_in_london]

The Germans bombed the Allies and the Allies bombed the Germans, such is the nature of war.

Amen.

 

[Ed]

Of course its sad. Is it a war crime- given the context?

Ian, old thinker, old boy, you are in serious danger of becoming chronocentric, a term which I have coined which takes the position that past acts must be judged by present standards. You can certainly do this but it results in drivel.

What you are saying in effect (if you take this position) is that "it is wrong because knowing what I know, sitting here fat and happy, with no apprehension of the events at that time, I would not do it." That is nice but essentially meaningless because your were not there and you do not apprehend the events.

Dresden was a number of things but it was not a war crime. It was perfectly consistant with modes and methods of warfare at that time. Today, not so good, then, acceptable. In 100 years perhaps acceptable again. Human sensibilities are not monotonic.

 

[Ed]

Re: Re: Dresden

I think it was completely disgusting. Utterly appalling and disgusting to mass murder innocent people. That's my judgement.

Would you have negotiated?

Hope you are not a jew.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Re: Re: Re: Dresden

So you disagree with the entire Allied bombing campaign?

No, just the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. It's reprehensible whichever side does it.

And Ed, ethics is not like fashion. If something is unethical, then it's unethical no matter when it occurs, or whichever culture you happen to live in.

This notion that morality is culturally dependent is an incredibly moronic notion. Allow me to assure you it's not.

 

[Ed]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dresden

No, just the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. It's reprehensible whichever side does it.

And Ed, ethics is not like fashion. If something is unethical, then it's unethical no matter when it occurs, or whichever culture you happen to live in.

This notion that morality is culturally dependent is an incredibly moronic notion. Allow me to assure you it's not.

Not by culture, by time.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dresden

No, just the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. It's reprehensible whichever side does it.

A common refrain is that Dresden was not a strategic target. Dresden was the junction of three main arteries in the German railway system, Dresden was a primary communications center, Dresden was the home of Chemische Fabric Goye and Company who made poison gas, Lehman who made anti-aircraft and field guns, Zeiss Ikon A.G who made optical goods for bombsights, Koch and Sterzel A.G who made electrical and X-ray apparatus, Saxoniswerke who made gears and differentials, Gebruder Bassler who made electric gauges.

So the notion that Dresden was not a strategic target is misinformed. Back then there were no laser-guided bombs it was therefore common to carpet bomb any target.

 

[Kerberos]

Re: Re: Re: Dresden

In a total war inwhich the bombing of cities common practise by both sides? Nevermind that the Nazis started it all.

Total war just means that you systematically bomb civilians, it doesn't justify it. I personally don't think that targeting civilians systematically is an improvement. As for the Nazis starting it, you're moving the goalposts.

Personally I dont give a crap if they were allowed to leave or not. Its a personal choice. Leave or be a target. Switzerlands' just over the border.

So you're totaly OK with terrorism and war crimes and think that we shouldn't pay the slightest mind to colateral damage. Guess, what? I disagree.

Not just German. Nazi.

i don't supose you could provide evidence that all the victims were Nazis? No? I didn't think so.

 

[Kerberos]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dresden

No, just the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. It's reprehensible whichever side does it.

But what is the attack on Dresden couldn't have been carried out without theese casaulties? The argument that Dresden was a military target and that they didn't have presision bombing certainly has merit.

This notion that morality is culturally dependent is an incredibly moronic notion. Allow me to assure you it's not.

Allow me to assure you it is.

 

[webfusion]

suppose the city had been nuked?

Would this discussion be taking place if the German cities had been the targets of the atomic bombs, instead of the Japanese?

 

[Ed]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dresden

Allow me to assure you it is.

Yes, culturally and temporally in a vast tapestry of interaction.

Big concepts tend to elude Ian, unfortunately. I believe that he only thinks in 4 or 5 dimensions. Pity.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dresden

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
No, just the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. It's reprehensible whichever side does it.

Kerberos
But what is the attack on Dresden couldn't have been carried out without theese casaulties? The argument that Dresden was a military target and that they didn't have presision bombing certainly has merit.

That of course changes the ethical implications and makes it much more complex. I do not have the information to judge it in that case.

quote:Originally posted by Interesting Ian
This notion that morality is culturally dependent is an incredibly moronic notion. Allow me to assure you it's not.

Kerberos
Allow me to assure you it is. [/B]

Why therefore declare war on nazi Germany? If they think it's ok to murder millions of Jews, then they are correct in this ethical judgement by definition according to you.

 

[Ed]

Re: suppose the city had been nuked?

Would this discussion be taking place if the German cities had been the targets of the atomic bombs, instead of the Japanese?

I don't see the difference between nukes and conventional, given constant damage. We did a hell of a lot more damage to Tokyo with conventional than we did with nukes on Nag and Hiro.