DR. ALAN WARD, Texan Vet

mbuehner

Student
M
Joined
Jul 27, 2001
Messages
25
"The record I have to show you has something about these events and many others. If you say "IMPOSSIBLE!" I say "Isn't that what this challenge is all about?"


Obviously postdictions dont count for the challenge. But can this guy predict anything (excuse me, has the word of God predicted anything)? Whats on deck in the secret bible code? Give us the date and location of the next big cataclysm to the required accuracy. Goodness knows the poor victims will be happy for the warning. Perhaps a protocol could be worked out. In fact, perhaps it already has- when the universe was created 10,000 years ago.
 
Paranormal does not necessarily mean impossible - and vice versa.

The applicant who claimed pigs flying out of his tuchus comes to mind.




Dr. Ward, even though your claim got rejected:

Make a prediction: Date, time, location, type of "event".

Post it in this thread. Do it now.

Hey, in case of a disaster you might even save lives. Doesn't this please this God? What with the "Love thy fellow man" and all.

Prove what you can do. Show us. Now. Thanks.
 
Agree with the above posts. I think it is easily possible to test this type of claim. All you do is require him to _predict_ something.
 
mbuehner: excuse me, has the word of God predicted anything?

No

mbuehner: Whats on deck in the secret bible code?

What secret Bible Code?
(Link prev post is no secret.)

mbuehner: Give us the date and location of the next big cataclysm to the required accuracy.

State "required accuracy".
Define "big cataclysm".

Was Roe vs Wade a cataclysm?

mbuehner: Perhaps a protocol could be worked out.

Perhaps not.

mbuehner: In fact, perhaps it already has- when the universe was created 10,000 years ago.

determinism is not a new field. In fact, one of the traditional objections to God is that an omnipotent/omni-everything God is incompatible with free will. Most of us would like to think that our actions have some consequence.

....
There are folk who believe that the Christian Bible is the only book you ever need. I must say to this, that I agree! For instance, in deuteronomy, it has the schematics showing how to overhaul the gearbox of a Vauxhall Viva.
-- Alexi Sayle
 
You may note that the application was not turned down on the grounds that the claim wasn't true. Rather that Randi dosn't get involved in discussion of interpretations of religious texts.

This is a wise move - such discussions are always problematical.

OTOH: the discovery of an anchient text detailing 21st century current events in clear terms (pictures too?) would probably make a good challenge. Say - todays NY Times front page reproduced on a papyrus unearthed under controlled conditions...

So: someone says that the bible unambiguously states the year of famous events occuring in history. I say "Name 10!"

I havn't seen any examples - don't forget to quote chapter and verse.

To be really useful, hindsight is not enough. Once you've got the ten examples, take a look at how they are constructed - then look for other passages in the Bible, looking for future dates. Work out the cataclysms from that and tell me just one which is supposed to occur in my lifetime.

Lastly - try to find similar passages in works not the Bible.
 
But what is to be gained from such a top ten list of biblical predictions?
Or a top ten list of predictions devined from the back of my corn flakes packet?

Such a list would have no value other than generating noise.
 
Flange Desire said:
But what is to be gained from such a top ten list of biblical predictions?
Or a top ten list of predictions devined from the back of my corn flakes packet?

Such a list would have no value other than generating noise.
Click to expand...

I agree with Flange Desire.

Dr. Ward should come up with a prediction - for the future, not the past. ;)

If his prediction proved accurate, KRAMER might get persuaded to reopen his file. After all, the JREF welcomes scientifically testable claims.



But first: Show us what you can do, Dr. Ward.
 
Flange Desire said:
But what is to be gained from such a top ten list of biblical predictions?
Or a top ten list of predictions devined from the back of my corn flakes packet?

Such a list would have no value other than generating noise.
Click to expand...

Consider:

I state that I have uncovered successful predictions of important events in the past. While the predictions occurred before the event, both are historical. I have documentation of these predictions and would like you to look it over.

I don't know about you, but I'd call that interesting and ask for an example with method before committing myself to pouring over the dossier.

This will give me an idea of what I'm looking for.

In this case, the documentation is the Xian Bible. The claim is that the predictions are non-ambiguous and specify the year. I'd like to see that, wouldn't you?

After all: if it turns out that many scolars have mised the bit in John where it says "And Simon Bridge did post to the JREF skeptical forums in January 2006." That would be pretty conclusive wouldn't it? (In fact I have one right here - only my claim was unfairly rejected on the grounds that the entry was in pen using my handwriting.)

I specified ten off the top of my head because of the TV series "Yes Prime Minister" and it's notes on how to survive an interview. Technically, one would be enough - but ten is good for initial statistics too.
 
Dr. Ward said:
"I know this because the patter holds true throughout recorded history."

This is one of the finest Freudian slips I've seen in a long time. How to I nominate this for a language award?

Robert
 
Pope130 said:
Dr. Ward said:
"I know this because the patter holds true throughout recorded history."

This is one of the finest Freudian slips I've seen in a long time. How to I nominate this for a language award?

Robert
Click to expand...

Don't bother. Revelations 3:2 says a post by Fowlsound wins.
 
Simon Bridge said:
SNIP
I'd like to see that, wouldn't you?
SNIP
That would be pretty conclusive wouldn't it?
SNIP
Click to expand...
No. No.
Any such 'conclusive predictions' found by someone in the bible would not be quite so conclusive for me.
My razor (borrowed from Occam) would steer me towards explanations like translation error or pure coincidence or whatever.

This may very well be a 'point of view' thing.
You see, as an athiest I consider that my corn flakes package has more predictive power.

(ps, i did thouroughly read both testaments back when i was a teenager thanks - and did see you mentioned there Simon - haha)
 
SNIP - posting a chunk of the Vet's assertions:

For example, Krakatoa - 1883, San Francisco - 1906 (I can counter the assertions made by Mr. Simon Winchester that God was not involved.) But it's not limited to natural phenomenon. It can be man-made events such as Roe v. Wade in 1973 or the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925 or even the writing and publishing of Origin Of Species in 1858-59. Importantly, though, I'm not saying every significant event of history is in some way detailed in the Bible. However numerous major events are. How many? I have no idea. Probably too many to count. At the very least, God's foreknowledge of these events can be easily demonstrated by using the NKJ version of the Bible and history. That's all that's needed. No computer, no computer program, no number-skip code. Just the word of God and factual, dated history. More than just god's foreknowledge, I believe this demonstrates the actual pattern that the events of the natural world operates on. In other words, I do not believe the Bible predicts the events of history, it in fact determines the events of history. I can clearly demonstrate this principle in an hour or so or I could spend the whole day going through example after example. I know this because the patter holds true throughout recorded history. It does not matter which century or even which millenia.

Can the fossil record show which year Darwin wrote Origin Of Species? Can the geologic record show the year and depict the event of the earthquake Darwin experienced while on the voyage of the Beagle? Does either record describe Darwin's "tree of life" sketch or indicate the year he drew it? Darwin seemingly proved there was no designer. I can show you how Darwin's very life was designed and recorded long before he was born. The record I have to show you has something about these events and many others. If you say "IMPOSSIBLE!" I say "Isn't that what this challenge is all about?"

SNIP

I'm not sure what this guy is getting at. He states that the bible predicted the writing and publishing of the Origin of Species to be 1858-9. I'd be interested in seeing what chapter and verse reads 'And in one thousand fifty-eight to nine years after the birth of my son, there shall be a man named Charles Darwin who will write and publish a book named The Origin of Species'. Seems like a totally whacked out claim to me. I'm not sure what that would prove, since the NKJ version of the bible has been written and rewritten zillions of times - but I'm sure this vet's chain of logic would be highly amusing.

Further - I thought Origin of Species was written over a number of years, certainly much more than 1858-9.

Even if I've overlooked that specific verse when I've read the bible, I'm not sure what this will prove - on a paranormal sense. If the vet is claiming HE has predictive powers, and that he uses the bible as his guide - then we have something testable. Kind of like the stock market dude who uses Astrology to make stock picks. His individual predictions are testable, and may qualify as paranormal - but statistical charts showing trends and patterns are nothing.

Edited to add: Why would a supreme being only be accurate to years, anyways? If he truly predicted cataclysmic events, why wouldn't he state year, date, time - and why would he use a calendar system that wasn't even relevant in the time of the book's authoring? Saying 'Two planes will crash into a building known as the World Trade Center x number of minutes/seconds after the birth of my only son' would cause me to scratch my head - if that was written in the original bible - wherever that may be...
 
Last edited:
Flange Desire said:
No. No.
Any such 'conclusive predictions' found by someone in the bible would not be quite so conclusive for me.
My razor (borrowed from Occam) would steer me towards explanations like translation error or pure coincidence or whatever.
Click to expand...
Sure - however, such an event would need explaining. You should also be able to imagine a circumstance in which dear Occam's knife would point in the direction of a prediction coming true. (Say the translation occurred centuries before the event?)

This may very well be a 'point of view' thing.
You see, as an athiest I consider that my corn flakes package has more predictive power.
Click to expand...
Ah now... that is a "faith" thing. I used to be an atheist - but now I know that God is a Woman, and Her name is Eris. All hail Discordia. Fnord.

Note: a prediction coming up in the bible dosn't mean God exists. Perhaps someone made a very good guess? Or maybe they were psychic and only thought it was holy? So this need not contradict your faith=atheism.

(ps, I did thouroughly read both testaments back when i was a teenager thanks - and did see you mentioned there Simon - haha)
Click to expand...
Hey, I just want you to know, the bit about the virgins is an exaggeration, but the part about the donkey is true :) it really did cry.
 
AntiqueHunter: Why would a supreme being only be accurate to years, anyways?

Take care there - that is a question about the motives of God. It could be anything! motive for intellegences is problematical: why did you where those socks today?

This is also the main problem with theism - as soon as you add God to your research the questions move from "what", and "how", to "why is God doing things this way?". Not helpful.
 
Simon - fair enough. My point wasn't really to suggest that I felt there was much value in researching the claim as presented any further, on the basis that a god should be more accurate than providing a year.

I would be fascinated to hear more from this guy if he can provide some clarity on what he believes he can achieve. He's phrased his claim (loosely) on the suggestion the bible predetermines history. This is not a testable thesis in my opinion. However, him saying he can predict future events, and the predictions HE, HIMSELF makes are encoded/revealed in the bible - now we are getting somewhere. From a paranormal examination standpoint, the basis for the influence of this individual's psychic abilities is immaterial - the bible, the stars, the bumps on his head, the colour of David Letterman's tie on a given day - irrelevant.

IF we ever hear from him again, and he revises his claim, I think we're headed for another 'thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts for you.'
 
Antiquehunter said:
...
I would be fascinated to hear more from this guy if he can provide some clarity on what he believes he can achieve. He's phrased his claim (loosely) on the suggestion the bible predetermines history. This is not a testable thesis in my opinion. However, him saying he can predict future events, and the predictions HE, HIMSELF makes are encoded/revealed in the bible - now we are getting somewhere. From a paranormal examination standpoint, the basis for the influence of this individual's psychic abilities is immaterial - the bible, the stars, the bumps on his head, the colour of David Letterman's tie on a given day - irrelevant.
...
Click to expand...

I concur with most of what you said.

But, please, in the name of server space, any applicant should not tell us what he BELIEVES he can do. Remember that sports gear punchline: Just DO IT.

One possible way for anybody to predict anything:

1. Do it. Precisely & unambiguous.
2. If one wants to include a "scriptural code", do that too. Give us the "original code" and the "decoded message". You do not have to explain you "cryptographical key". (If your prediction proved accurate, THEN you may come up with an explanation of your decoding technique, if you wish to do so.)
3. Do it. Show us. Make it hap'n, cap'n.
 
I wonder what the phone call was about. Did he rant? Or did he try to plead his case calmly? I'm guessing the first.

Of course he may have called about the weather.
 
Antiquehunter said:
I'm not sure what this guy is getting at. He states that the bible predicted the writing and publishing of the Origin of Species to be 1858-9. I'd be interested in seeing what chapter and verse reads 'And in one thousand fifty-eight to nine years after the birth of my son, there shall be a man named Charles Darwin who will write and publish a book named The Origin of Species'.
Click to expand...

Then, by a logical extension at least as sound as dr. Alan Ward's, evolution is the Holy Word of the Lord, and the IDers should just shut up and find something more useful to do, or they will endure an afterlife downstairs... :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom