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Dowsing among the engineers

sackett

Barely Tolerated Lampooneer
S
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A few minutes ago, I watched a "consultant" from a construction company locating test holes outside my building, the College of Engineering here at Wayne State University. He was using a dowsing rod, i.e., a piece of car aerial bent 90 degrees and swivelling in a metal handle.

He worked quickly and busily, stopping in various places to spray-paint X's on the grass. I didn't approach him; I stay away from solemn wackos with blunt insturments in their hands. But I asked a man from our Design Services what this guy was up to.

"Oh," says he, "the fellow was locating buried pipes so that the test holes won't hit them. He claims that he's never failed to locate a buried pipe in twenty years!

"Of course, he consults the piping diagram first."
 
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Not to mention that he is using 'negative logic'.

Just as most wells hit water, most holes can be dug without hitting buried pipes. So the fact that he hasn't hit one yet is meaningless.
 
Our dean had to told what dowsing is supposed to do, bless his innocent engineering soul. But he got the gist of it when I explained about hazel rods and finding water, and really enjoyed the part about the piping diagram.

No, I won't be able to dine out on this story. But I'm going to have a beer to steady my nerves.
 
Hope they got a guarantee in writing, along with suitable insurance. Come to think of it, I wonder what the insurance company for the project thinks of this. Cripes, I wonder what the drillers themselves think!

If the drillers hit a gas pipeline, there will almost certainly be property damage and it is very possible that there will be fatalities. Do the guys who might actually be killed by this incompetence know what's going on?

Reliance upon unreliable "technology" produces what engineers call a "false sense of security," in that it leads to a mis-estimation of risks. Sometimes that mis-estimation is a gross mis-estimation, and people die.

My reaction is that this is not a minor, laughable matter but a potentially major liability problem.
 
I tried dowsing a million years ago when I was a kid. Two coat hangers, and I was successful on the first try. A rusty beer cap. But still success......
 
sinclairmcevoy said:
I tried dowsing a million years ago when I was a kid. Two coat hangers, and I was successful on the first try. A rusty beer cap. But still success......
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Obviously a highly talented individual. The lad found where a watery liquid HAD BEEN. Just a leeetle bit of fine tuning...
 
Brown said:
Hope they got a guarantee in writing, along with suitable insurance. Come to think of it, I wonder what the insurance company for the project thinks of this. Cripes, I wonder what the drillers themselves think!

If the drillers hit a gas pipeline, there will almost certainly be property damage and it is very possible that there will be fatalities. Do the guys who might actually be killed by this incompetence know what's going on?

Reliance upon unreliable "technology" produces what engineers call a "false sense of security," in that it leads to a mis-estimation of risks. Sometimes that mis-estimation is a gross mis-estimation, and people die.

My reaction is that this is not a minor, laughable matter but a potentially major liability problem.
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Exactly, Brown. Cut cables and pipes cost millions every year. That is why Utilities have a coordinated locating service,free, if you'll just let them locate the things BEFORE you dig.
For a while, long ago, I had the job of locating comm cables . And I didn't use a dowsing rod, unless you consider a Dynatel to be such.
And they still whacked a few, anyway, stakes,paint & all.
 
rustytunes said:
Do you have anything like Dial Before You Digwhere you are?
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In the USA they're generally organized by state. They're often called "one call systems", and calling a specified period (usually 48 hours) before digging or drilling is often required by law.

I woulda thought that the engineering department of a university would know that.
 
ktesibios said:
...I woulda thought that the engineering department of a university would know that.
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Engineers? Our Design Services don't waste time with no damn faculty advice. They're Real Men! (tm) "Here we will build," they declare, and the peasants and fellahin can clear a path.

However: The man used the existing piping plan, a good and up-to-date one, and he's working under University supervision. I don't think there's much risk.

Just a little everyday ditz to sweeten the air.
 
Years ago, I wrote on here of a maintenance worker here at the University, whom I observed reading the charts of where the various pipes were, then confirming the charts by using his dowsing rod.

I bet he thought that every success proved him right.
 
Mercutio said:
Years ago, I wrote on here of a maintenance worker here at the University, whom I observed reading the charts of where the various pipes were, then confirming the charts by using his dowsing rod.
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In that case, with prior knowledge, I can see that a believer would really be susceptible to the ideomotor effect, unconsciously making the rods move at the point where he already knows they should.
 
Basilio said:
...A gas main explosion could make the Cass coridor commute more interesting:D

Basilio
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Thank you for that encouraging post, B. My office is on the ground floor and my windows look toward the site in question. I even have a bit of Cass Ave. in sight. Yes, thank you very much.

The guy's dowsing tool was NOT home-made; he obvioiusly bought it somewhere, maybe even from a tool company. Gosh, I'm getting more encouraged all the time.
 
I'm a professional engineer and I have to put the location of existing utilities on plans that I prepare, including the size and depth. If I put a note on a set of plans that these locations were determined by dowsing, I would be sued for malpractice and lose my license.
 
Let's talk a bit about the extent of the risk here.

Suppose there is a discrepancy in the charts that is "resolved" via dowsing rather than by other proven methods. Or suppose there is a resistance found during digging, but dowsing suggests that this is not a buried pipe or cable, and is of no concern, and digging proceeds based upon dowsing-based "assurance."

And suppose the dowsing yields incorrect results. What could happen?

Hit a water pipe, and innocent people lose water service (in the event of a fire, loss of water service to a neighborhood can be very serious). Hit a sewer line, and there can be a nasty stench along with a loss of sewer service and possible sewer backups. Hit an electric cable, and people could be electrocuted. Hit a gas line, and there could be an explosion that could be fatal to persons nearby and that could crack windows for miles around and knock buildings off foundations.

How much money would these goofs cost? The amount of property damage could range in the thousands to the millions of dollars. In the event of fatalities, damages jump into the tens of millions of dollars. Safety measures based upon dowsing would arguably be reckless, and subject the defendants to punitive damage liability, which could further mulitply the damages.

It is not difficult to imagine a reasonable scenario in which damages reach into the billions of dollars. That's "billions" with a "B."

If I were this construction company's insurer, I'd be mad as hell that dowsing was being used in such an important safety situation having such extensive liability consequences.

And if I was a university representative, I'd be well aware that in the event of an accident, the university would also be sued, guaranteed. So I'd be mad as hell, too.
 
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