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Double The Minimum Wage

Solitaire

Neoclinus blanchardi
Joined
Jul 25, 2001
Messages
3,097
Location
Tennessee
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Fifteen dollar minimum wage? A bit high.
For that price I could hire a few russian engineers and start my own missile program.

Where did this number come from?

P.S. I like the "Life's a Lottery" phrase. Although I prefer to pick up scratchers.
 
Video

Fifteen dollar minimum wage? A bit high.
For that price I could hire a few russian engineers and start my own missile program.

Where did this number come from?

P.S. I like the "Life's a Lottery" phrase. Although I prefer to pick up scratchers.

If you double the minimum wage you will almost, but not quite, get to the Australian minimum wage....
 
If you double the minimum wage you will almost, but not quite, get to the Australian minimum wage....

Everything cost a fortune in Aus,so it doesn't make much of a difference. I live in Eastern Canada.... I make between 70 and 80k a year.... the dollar is about the same as Aus. It's equivalent to making about 45k in the US (area depending of course).
 
Everything cost a fortune in Aus,so it doesn't make much of a difference. I live in Eastern Canada.... I make between 70 and 80k a year.... the dollar is about the same as Aus. It's equivalent to making about 45k in the US (area depending of course).

Not even close to being true. The Big Mac index showed Australia's currency was 8% "over valued" against the US dollar a year ago (the latest figures I could find) and with our dollar dropping recently, I imagine it would be even less.

Like it or not, someone on minimum wages in Australia lives far more comfortably than someone on minimum wages in the US.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/07/daily-chart-17

ETA more recent figures show a 17% difference, but ths was before the 10% drop in our dollar against the US dollar, so I think it would be 10% or so. Your estimate is far off.
 
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You can compare the cost of living between different countries here:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp

E.g., the "consumer price + rent index" is 59.83 in the US (of course that also varies within the US, but that's a national average). The same index is 104.41 in Australia and 70.94 in Canada. In Japan it's 80.96. Norway is the most expensive country in the world to live (of those surveyed at least) at 123.52.

ETA: Very detailed comparison of the cost of living in US and Australia (only drawback is it's measured in US dollars. That wouldn't have mattered when there was exchange rate parity, but it probably makes Australia appear more expensive (or do I have it backwards?) at current exchange rates.)
 
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You can compare the cost of living between different countries here:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp

E.g., the "consumer price + rent index" is 59.83 in the US (of course that also varies within the US, but that's a national average). The same index is 104.41 in Australia and 70.94 in Canada. In Japan it's 80.96. Norway is the most expensive country in the world to live (of those surveyed at least) at 123.52.

ETA: Very detailed comparison of the cost of living in US and Australia (only drawback is it's measured in US dollars. That wouldn't have mattered when there was exchange rate parity, but it probably makes Australia appear more expensive (or do I have it backwards?) at current exchange rates.)

I know about this comparison, but I think the Big Mac index has been accepted as a valid comparison for quite some time.
 
E.g., the "consumer price + rent index" is 59.83 in the US (of course that also varies within the US, but that's a national average). The same index is 104.41 in Australia
Australia just needs to double the minimum wage again, problem solved!
 
I know about this comparison, but I think the Big Mac index has been accepted as a valid comparison for quite some time.
Are you joking or being serious?
This could probably save the US government a lot of money. Who knows how many economists are employed to figure the CPI. I would bet millions of dollars are spent figuring it.
 
Are you joking or being serious?
This could probably save the US government a lot of money. Who knows how many economists are employed to figure the CPI. I would bet millions of dollars are spent figuring it.

My father tracked the "french" CPI for 30 years, against his wage, and how much my mother would buy to feed us. The CPI (of France at least) always showed lower inflation than the reality of a family buying stuff. The reason for this was that in the french version of the CPI there were stuff unrelated to what the average family bought to survive. Not sure if the economist version of CPI is better, but I doubt it. I am not sure about the big mac index, but at least to comapre between country it sounds more valid than various CPI of various weight idnexed stuff mixed together.
 
Video

Fifteen dollar minimum wage? A bit high.
For that price I could hire a few russian engineers and start my own missile program.

Where did this number come from?

P.S. I like the "Life's a Lottery" phrase. Although I prefer to pick up scratchers.

Why do you consider $15/hour too high? I don't really know enough to form an opinion - I have no idea what effect raising the minimum wage would have on, well anything.
 
Why do you consider $15/hour too high? I don't really know enough to form an opinion - I have no idea what effect raising the minimum wage would have on, well anything.

Tends to be correlated with increased buying power for the lowest wage workers (not directly, there are diminishing returns), cost increases on mass-produced goods, increased labor costs for many businesses (disproportionately affecting small businesses and low-end service industries), and probably some other things I can't recall right now. Also, there tends to be some job loss when it's raised, as some companies will fire/lay off some workers to keep their labor costs down. To prevent a lot of cultural differences, you can compare it in the U.S. between states that have higher-than-usual minumum wages and states that keep it at the federally set minimum wage.

$15 an hour does seem high. It's about what you can expect in a lot of places with a basic college degree: it'd be on the higher end for an AAS and on the lower end for a BS (at least around here). That does seem a bit much.

In addition, if this is done in a single jump, the problems listed above would be aggravated; made worse by happening in a big jump instead of over time. Imagine if you run a small business with 10 employees, say 7 of which are minimum wage. You've just added a huge amount of cost to your business that you've had no time to adjust for. If it should be increased, it should be in small increases every year or two, not a huge and sudden shift.
 
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Tends to be correlated with increased buying power for the lowest wage workers (not directly, there are diminishing returns), cost increases on mass-produced goods, increased labor costs for many businesses (disproportionately affecting small businesses and low-end service industries), and probably some other things I can't recall right now. Also, there tends to be some job loss when it's raised, as some companies will fire/lay off some workers to keep their labor costs down. To prevent a lot of cultural differences, you can compare it in the U.S. between states that have higher-than-usual minumum wages and states that keep it at the federally set minimum wage.

$15 an hour does seem high. It's about what you can expect in a lot of places with a basic college degree: it'd be on the higher end for an AAS and on the lower end for a BS (at least around here). That does seem a bit much.

In addition, if this is done in a single jump, the problems listed above would be aggravated; made worse by happening in a big jump instead of over time. Imagine if you run a small business with 10 employees, say 7 of which are minimum wage. You've just added a huge amount of cost to your business that you've had no time to adjust for. If it should be increased, it should be in small increases every year or two, not a huge and sudden shift.

It seems reasonable that the minimum legal wage should not equal the prevailing wage for jobs requiring advanced training. I doubt (with only shallow research) that jobs requiring degrees pay in the $15/hour range. Through a vague hip-shoot google search, I found a source that says that 2012s graduates have a mean salary of about $45K - somewhere in the $23/hour range. Of course, that's for a 4 year degree - but graduate from a 2 year school with a certificate/degree in a technical skill often make more intiially than their 4 year counterparts.

All that being said, I still don't have an opinion on what the minimum wage should be. I'd prefer to hear what the minimum wage should accomplish first.
 
The problem is that they are trying to set minimum wage across a huge country with massive fluctuations in cost of living. 15$/hr may seem high in a small town in some podunk corner of the farmlands but it is barely scraping by in a big city like New York or Sidney.

In such large and varied countries as Australia or the USA it is foolish to make any kind of generalization.
 
It seems reasonable that the minimum legal wage should not equal the prevailing wage for jobs requiring advanced training. I doubt (with only shallow research) that jobs requiring degrees pay in the $15/hour range. Through a vague hip-shoot google search, I found a source that says that 2012s graduates have a mean salary of about $45K - somewhere in the $23/hour range. Of course, that's for a 4 year degree - but graduate from a 2 year school with a certificate/degree in a technical skill often make more intiially than their 4 year counterparts.

All that being said, I still don't have an opinion on what the minimum wage should be. I'd prefer to hear what the minimum wage should accomplish first.

Someone else mentioned it, but check on a state-by-state basis. It's not easy to find that data per state. THe raw data is available, but it's generally separated by job categories, and trying to go through a few thousand options and pick out the degree-requiring form non is more time than I want to invest :)

But for a personal example, I attended the major state two-year college in Arkansas. My salary, upon finding a job after graduation, was about $36k. At that, I was the highest paid graduate they'd had in quite some time (on my side, I had two years experience in a work-study program working in my field, as well as years of military experience under my belt). The average 4-year salary here is probably about $40k.

The state-by-state data is important, because the states with lower average incomes will be affected the most radically by something like this.

And as I said, the $15 an hour wage is probably close to the high end for a two-year degree here (perhaps closer to average elsewhere), with $20 an hour being the low end for a 4 year degree (which seems reasonable with a $23 per hour average).

But I definitely agree with your final paragraph. I don't know what it should be, either...but $15 seems a bit high to me. There are a lot of "ripple effects" from increasing minimum wage; a lot of people seem to think it just magically makes everyone able to afford more. While it does increase buying power for lower-end jobs to some degree, it can also inadvertently tighten the job market (as companies hire fewer employees to cut costs), reduce incentive for college education (if I can make $15 an hour without, and $23 an hour by going $30k in debt for a four year degree, is it really worth it?), and have all sorts of other effects that rarely seem to be accounted for.

I want better data, myself :)
 
The problem is that they are trying to set minimum wage across a huge country with massive fluctuations in cost of living. 15$/hr may seem high in a small town in some podunk corner of the farmlands but it is barely scraping by in a big city like New York or Sidney.

In such large and varied countries as Australia or the USA it is foolish to make any kind of generalization.

This, definitely.

I work in the largest city in Arkansas, as an example, and $15 an hour is considered good money here for anyone without a degree of some sort. Heck, as a computer analyst in a management position, responsible for literally millions of dollars worth of equipment and information, with a 4-year degree, military training and 17 years military experience (only 6 in the same field), and 11 years civilian experience, plus numerous technical certifications, I'm only paid about $35 an hour.

Compared to the short time I lived in Oregon, it's a whole different world.
 
This, definitely.

I work in the largest city in Arkansas, as an example, and $15 an hour is considered good money here for anyone without a degree of some sort. Heck, as a computer analyst in a management position, responsible for literally millions of dollars worth of equipment and information, with a 4-year degree, military training and 17 years military experience (only 6 in the same field), and 11 years civilian experience, plus numerous technical certifications, I'm only paid about $35 an hour.

Compared to the short time I lived in Oregon, it's a whole different world.
But, we've got Voodoo Doughnuts!

I live in Portland, Oregon, and everything (housing in particular) costs well out of proportion with what it should be. The minimum wage in Oregon is well above the national average already. The economy is still depressed here, and increasing the minimum wage won't help when people can't even afford a place to live.
 
I live in the San Francisco bay area and when I first started out I was making about 15$/hr. On that I was barely scraping by with help from family and a wonderful friend who charged me a ridiculously low amount to live in her back room. Had I been making that much elsewhere I would have been doing well but the cost of living in this area is sky high.
 
This, definitely.

I work in the largest city in Arkansas, as an example, and $15 an hour is considered good money here for anyone without a degree of some sort. Heck, as a computer analyst in a management position, responsible for literally millions of dollars worth of equipment and information, with a 4-year degree, military training and 17 years military experience (only 6 in the same field), and 11 years civilian experience, plus numerous technical certifications, I'm only paid about $35 an hour.

Compared to the short time I lived in Oregon, it's a whole different world.

15 bucks an hour is decent here as well. I've been a commercial drywall mechanic/foreman for almost 20 years, it took me several years to learn the skillset and knowledge base I have. I am not opposed to raising the minimum wage, however I do see issues with such a drastic increase. One being if you double the minimum wage it would pretty much necessitate raising other wages as well, which I am not opposed to either. ;) However I feel this ripple effect could cause real problems for already struggling industries.
 

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