Does walking on fire or broken glass qualify?

[bratok]

Hi,
Any idea if walking on burning coles, smashed glass, sharp nails, holding hands in fire, etc ... ( without any consequences, of course ) does qualify?


Thanx

 

[roger]

The mechanism for these acts are well known and understood; there is nothing paranormal about them. Thus, they would not be eligible for the challenge.

 

[bratok]

The mechanism for these acts are well known and understood; there is nothing paranormal about them. Thus, they would not be eligible for the challenge.

What do you think is the mechanism of this acts? As I understand, it is that the one doing them tells his subcounciouse that "I am fire, so fire can't hurt me!" and it really doesn't hurt him.


Thanx

 

[arcticpenguin]

There's an entry on firewalking in the Skeptic's Dictionary

... Thus, even if the coals are very hot (1,000 to 1,200 degrees), a person with "normal" soles won't get burned as long as he or she doesn't take too long to walk across the coals and as long as the coals used do not have a very high heat capacity. Volcanic rock and certain wood embers will work just fine...

 

[roger]

bratok,

I am under a bit of a time crunch here, so let me address only walking on coals. I'm sure other members can fill you in on your other examples.

Walking on coals is mainly a function of the low heat capacity of coals. This link describes it in not too scientific language. However, let me offer you a very similar example:

Heat your oven to 400 degrees F.
Heat a piece of metal to 300 degrees F.

Put your arm in the oven for 5 seconds. You do not get burned.
Put your hand on the piece of metal for 5 seconds. You end up badly burned, with blisters.

Why do you get burned by the metal, but not the air, even though the metal is much cooler than the air? Because the air has low heat capacity, ie it can't transfer a lot of heat quickly to your arm. Given enough time, 15 minutes say, you will end up cooked, but nothing much happens in only 5 seconds. The metal, however, is very efficient at conducting heat, and contains a lot of heat (heat capacity), and so it burns you very quickly.

The coals work a lot like the air in your oven - they are not efficient at transfering heat to your bare feet.

Please note my answer is not especially scientifically precise - I was aiming at getting the general idea to you, not to present a rigorous scientific explanation.

In short, anyone can walk on coals whether they believe it works or not, as long as the coal bed is prepared correctly. And conversely, if they coal beds are not prepared properly (so the coals have low heat capacity), well, people get burned, whether they believe they will be burned or not.

I hope this clarifies things. Seach google for "fire walking" if you need more information.

roger

 

[bratok]

Oh, I see. But, for example, putting out a burning cigarette against ones hand, without useing any isolators, of course. Or walking on sharp, broken glass ?

I.e. doing something without getting hurt, that, someone else doing, would get hurt.

Well, just saw a Yog doing this things and he said that he's telling his subcounciouse, and makeing it believe, like "I am fire, so I cannot get hurt by fire" or "I am water, so I cannot get hurt by sharp objects" and also doing some exercises to make more seem like the substance he wants to be. Moveing in the same rythim with a flickering flame, for example...


Thanx

 

[Starrman]

I.e. doing something without getting hurt, that, someone else doing, would get hurt.

Here's the kicker, if someone else did exaclty what the Yoga did, they would not get hurt either. It is a magic trick dressed up in mysticism.

QUOTE]Well, just saw a Yog doing this things and he said that he's telling his subcounciouse, and makeing it believe, like "I am fire, so I cannot get hurt by fire" or "I am water, so I cannot get hurt by sharp objects" and also doing some exercises to make more seem like the substance he wants to be. Moveing in the same rythim with a flickering flame, for example...[/QUOTE]

Next time the Yoga says he is water, hit him in the head with a sledgehammer. If he is still not hurt, I'll give you the million myself.

 

[uneasy]

Also, the argument has been made that JREF shouldn't accept applicants for feats that will edanger anyone (see threads on people offering to live without eating). This would fall into that category also. So even if they wanted to walk across very hot aluminum (very conductive), I doubt it would be accepted.

 

[bratok]

Here's the kicker, if someone else did exaclty what the Yoga did, they would not get hurt either. It is a magic trick dressed up in mysticism.

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.
So I don't believe that an ordinary person, without any powers or skills, can cause this feeling in another person.

2. He got everything right.
All he had at first was my name, but he told me everything correct about my health at that moment.

How would you explain that ?


Thanx

 

[arcticpenguin]

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.
So I don't believe that an ordinary person, without any powers or skills, can cause this feeling in another person.

2. He got everything right.
All he had at first was my name, but he told me everything correct about my health at that moment.

How would you explain that ?


Thanx

I never saw any of that, so I have nothing to explain. But if you had serious problems in any internal organs, wouldn't you be in the hospital instead of visiting a yogi?

 

[Starrman]

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

Yes

For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

So what.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.

1) You could be lying, or not be who you say you are at all
2) You could be remembering wrong
3) The Yoga mentioning the organ may have caused your brain to think about it and made you acutely aware of it.
4) The Yoga's magic stick sent out an invisible beam that touched the organ, then went back to the Yoga and told him that your organ was fine.

Which do you think is the most likely explanation? I think it is #1, but that is irrelevant.

2. He got everything right.
All he had at first was my name, but he told me everything correct about my health at that moment.

1) You could be lying, or not be who you say you are at all
2) You could be remembering wrong
3) He could have guessed and got it right
4) Did you verify what he said with a doctor, maybe you don't remember your medical history correctly
5) The Yoga used a piece of metal to send chi into your body and communicate with your organs and body. Your body remembered its history as accurately as you did and sent the beam back to the Yoga and he told you.

Which do you think is the most likely explanation? Guess which one I think it is?

I saw David Copperfield fly across the Grand Canyon on TV. How do explain that!

 

[roger]

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

This sort of thing would be applicable to the challenge, unlike firewalking.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.
So I don't believe that an ordinary person, without any powers or skills, can cause this feeling in another person.

How would I explain this? Power of suggestion. But there is no point in us going back and forth on what the cause was, because this is easily tested. Briefly, the yoga tries to make one of your organ tingle w/o telling you which one, and you guess which one he is targeting. (the experiment needs proper controls, but that's the gist of it).

Fact is, no one has ever passed this kind of thing, and the power of suggestion to cause this kind of effect has been amply proven, so, I go with power of suggestion until shown otherwise. In other words, when there are 2 explanations, choose the simpler one.

2. He got everything right.

I wonder how you know? How do you know that you don't have, say, parasites in your liver that he didn't detect.

He may have gotten lucky. He may have been cold reading you (look at some of the threads on here about John Edwards to learn about cold reading).

There are lots of ways these things are done. Hang around here awhile and you'll start learning them.

Anyway, this skill can be easily tested. If he passes a scientificially controlled test, then I'll believe it is true.


bartok, remember just a few hours ago when you believed that fire walking was real until you learned there was another explanation? I'm not trying to be rude, but doesn't this show you that if you don't know something, that it is unwise to draw conclusions about the cause of the effect? In this case, you don't know how the yoga might have accomplished what he did, yet you decide you " don't believe an ordinary person ... can cause this".

It's good to ask questions about things like this, just be careful about drawing conclusions before you have the evidence. Sorry if I sound pompous; I don't mean to.

roger

 

[bratok]

I never saw any of that, so I have nothing to explain. But if you had serious problems in any internal organs, wouldn't you be in the hospital instead of visiting a yogi?

No, no serios problems at all! Had this more like for fun, to see what he's capable of.

>>1) You could be lying, or not be who you say you are at all
Nope

>>2) You could be remembering wrong
Nope

>>3) He could have guessed and got it right
Also don't think so

>>4) Did you verify what he said with a doctor, maybe you don't remember your medical history correctly
He mostly told me about old traumas that I had. Like a broken colorbone or was hit with something on the left side of my head, etc...

>>5) The Yoga used a piece of metal to send chi into your body and communicate with your organs and body. Your body remembered its history as accurately as you did and sent the beam back to the Yoga and he told you.
As I was later explained, but didn't really understand, he used this metal rod as a "visualisator" to "see" my organs, like some color or shineing around them... I don't know, Aura maybe?

>>This sort of thing would be applicable to the challenge, unlike firewalking.

As I also found here Randi is turning off many candidates and some poeple are thinking that he has no intention of giveing anybody this million or, what is probably even worth for him, accepting that this "powers" exist.


Good Luck!

 

[BTox]

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

Yes, they are magicians, nothing more.

For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.
So I don't believe that an ordinary person, without any powers or skills, can cause this feeling in another person.

So you had this feeling in your brain when he said "brain, left hemisphere, perfect!"? Just a psychosomatic reaction on your part.

2. He got everything right.
All he had at first was my name, but he told me everything correct about my health at that moment.

How would you explain that ?

Power of suggestion, lucky guesses. Psychic tricks are very easy to pull off.

 

[uneasy]

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

{stuff}

How would you explain that ?

Nobody has to explain that. That guy just needs to take the JREF challenge and get a million bucks. Simple as that. Don't post excuses as to why not please, we've heard them all before.

 

[Starrman]

I suggested:

>>2) You could be remembering wrong

Your response:

Nope

You are a true believer. You wont even acknowledge the possibility that you are mistaken about how it happened. You put to much trust in the power of human memory.

Even if you are remembering correctly, why bring something as goofy as 'Auras' into the equation? What about the numerous other explanations offered?

 

[bratok]

You are a true believer. You wont even acknowledge the possibility that you are mistaken about how it happened. You put to much trust in the power of human memory.

Hmm... I remamber very well that after he called out an organ and started spinning the metal rod, I felt that feeling in the organ he called out and then he would say about this organ.


Thanx

 

[Starrman]

I stand corrected, how could I have ever doubted you (whoever you are).

 

[gnome]

As I also found here Randi is turning off many candidates and some poeple are thinking that he has no intention of giveing anybody this million or, what is probably even worth for him, accepting that this "powers" exist.

I wouldn't expect somone that poked holes in people's pet beliefs in the powers they imagine they have to be popular. I would expect him to be even less popular with those that are deliberate charlatans.

If I were a person of the first type, I would usually rather believe that Randi was not sincere than question my beliefs. If I were a charlatan, I would claim so loudly in order to avoid testing my own claim. So the fact that people say they don't think Randi to be sincere means nothing without specific evidence or arguments, which we are more than happy to discuss and have been all along.

 

[glee]

Hmm... I remamber very well that after he called out an organ and started spinning the metal rod, I felt that feeling in the organ he called out and then he would say about this organ.

Thanx

Have a look for 'eyewitness testimony' on a search engine.
Soon you will found why courts are very reluctant to rely on just people's memories.

In your case, you seem keen to believe that there is a category of people called 'Yogis' who have mystic powers not available to the rest of us (e.g. reading auras).
As far as I know there is precisely zero scientific evidence for this belief - just anecdotes from people like yourself who are romantically inclined to trust the Yogi.