Does this qualify for the challenge

[EternalSceptic]

Does this qualify for the challenge?

I can control my heart frequency.

By touching a certain point on my neck I can reduce my heart beat frequency from the norml 65 to 75 beats per minute down to between 20 and 30 beats for at least 5 beats.

I can do that anytime, measuring instruments attached to my body (EKG, pulse frequency meter, blood flow meter, whatever you like) have no influence of the outcome, sceptics don't disturb, the place where the test takes place does not matter.

Only condition: I need half an hour to accomodate to the actual condition (instruments attached, all testing persons in contact with me, because it does not work well when I am excited or nervous. I'd like to give the start sign as soon as I am ready, but agree, this must be within one hour, and it is not "conditio sine qua non") before the test starts, and I must be full conscious (no drugs, a good sleep before the test, not hungry or thirsty)

I will win if I can demostrate this ability in 10 out of ten tests, no more than five tests a day with at least half an hour break inbetween.

-------

Of course this will not qualify. I just want to demonstrate, that certain physical sensations could lead people to believe in paranormal events. IMO cllaims to have paranormal abilities are not necessarily scam.

 

[Ben Tilly]

Does this qualify for the challenge?

I can control my heart frequency.

By touching a certain point on my neck I can reduce my heart beat frequency from the norml 65 to 75 beats per minute down to between 20 and 30 beats for at least 5 beats.

I can do that anytime, measuring instruments attached to my body (EKG, pulse frequency meter, blood flow meter, whatever you like) have no influence of the outcome, sceptics don't disturb, the place where the test takes place does not matter.

Please, please, please do not play with this. The massage that you are talking about has been known to slow hearts to a stop. You would not want this to happen without proper precautions present.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[EternalSceptic]

Please, please, please do not play with this. The massage that you are talking about has been known to slow hearts to a stop. You would not want this to happen without proper precautions present.

Cheers,
Ben

Thank you for the warning. I will not and I did just a few times on hospital where I "discovered" the effect when I tried to feel my pulse. In the OP I just wanted to point out, that unexplained physical sensations might lead somebody to believe it's some paranormal event.

Btw. I was not talking about a massage, it's just a slight touch with a fingertip at the point where one can feel the pulse pretty strong in the artery left and right of the larynx. Now looking in my dictionary I found out that throat would have been a better word than neck. Just curious: are we talking about the same thing?

 

[Ben Tilly]

Thank you for the warning. I will not and I did just a few times on hospital where I "discovered" the effect when I tried to feel my pulse. In the OP I just wanted to point out, that unexplained physical sensations might lead somebody to believe it's some paranormal event.

Btw. I was not talking about a massage, it's just a slight touch with a fingertip at the point where one can feel the pulse pretty strong in the artery left and right of the larynx. Now looking in my dictionary I found out that throat would have been a better word than neck. Just curious: are we talking about the same thing?

Yes. What you are touching is the carotid artery. The area where it widens is the carotid sinus, and there are pressure receptors there. If the pressure is too high, it slows your heart down, too low and it speeds your heart up. If you increase the pressure in that artery artificially (by touching, some choke holds, and more extremely by massage) then your heart will slow down. People's hearts have been stopped that way.

Many teenagers learn about this. More precisely they learn that if you hyperventilate then someone applies presssure there, you'll black out. This is not a good thing to do - when done repeatedly it causes brain damage, and it is possible to die this way.

(Disclaimer, I am not medically trained, I just pick up random trivia from my wife who is.)

Cheers,
Ben

 

[blutoski]

Does this qualify for the challenge?

I can control my heart frequency.

By touching a certain point on my neck I can reduce my heart beat frequency from the norml 65 to 75 beats per minute down to between 20 and 30 beats for at least 5 beats.

I can do that anytime, measuring instruments attached to my body (EKG, pulse frequency meter, blood flow meter, whatever you like) have no influence of the outcome, sceptics don't disturb, the place where the test takes place does not matter.

Only condition: I need half an hour to accomodate to the actual condition (instruments attached, all testing persons in contact with me, because it does not work well when I am excited or nervous. I'd like to give the start sign as soon as I am ready, but agree, this must be within one hour, and it is not "conditio sine qua non") before the test starts, and I must be full conscious (no drugs, a good sleep before the test, not hungry or thirsty)

I will win if I can demostrate this ability in 10 out of ten tests, no more than five tests a day with at least half an hour break inbetween.

-------

Of course this will not qualify. I just want to demonstrate, that certain physical sensations could lead people to believe in paranormal events. IMO cllaims to have paranormal abilities are not necessarily scam.

Agreed that not all claimants are scammers. I don't think anybody believes that this is the case.

Where the scammers part from the sincere but uninformed is when they are given perfectly reasonable natural explanations, but reject them for questionable reasons.

In this example, as other posters have mentioned, this is a known reflex. A similar one that has 'mystical' claims around it is that your heartrate increases when you inhale, and decreases when you exhale. There are other ganglia that manage this throughout the circulatory system: your veins and arteries are innervated intentionally, to modify blood flow in case of injury.

Now, people can respond to these facts in two ways:

1. "Oh."

or

2. "But not in my case - this is a supernatural situation that just happens to also have a natural event that looks similar." (Randi's Unsinkable Ducks.)

 

[dakotajudo]

If the pressure is too high, it slows your heart down, too low and it speeds your heart up.

More precisely, pressure on the baroreceptors change cardiac output, not simply heart rate. Slowed heart rate may be partially compensated for by increased stroke volume (although, I don't know if that's happening in this case).

People's hearts have been stopped that way.

Have they?

I coach judo, and in the past taught a physiology lab; I've spent some time studying this reflex. Once, I did a demostration in lab once; we were recording student EKG's, so I had my assistant apply hadaka-jime - popularly known as the rear naked choke - still have the data, somewhere.

FWIW, the effect of the choke was comparable to the effect of the Valsalva maneuver.

Anyway, I've not found any evidence that people's hearts have stopped. Slowed greatly, yes. There's an interesting paper on chokes published by the Kodokan (the center for judo) on the physiological effects of shime-waza. This studied included EKG and choking to unconsciousness. Heart rates dropped to about 1/3 after the application of one type of strangle.

But not stopped completely.

I am suprised by the original post, that light pressure is sufficient to trigger as dramatic a change as described. I'm wondering if the OP isn't likely to pass out on the toilet.

 

[Ben Tilly]

Anyway, I've not found any evidence that people's hearts have stopped. Slowed greatly, yes. There's an interesting paper on chokes published by the Kodokan (the center for judo) on the physiological effects of shime-waza. This studied included EKG and choking to unconsciousness. Heart rates dropped to about 1/3 after the application of one type of strangle.

But not stopped completely.

Googling for a quick reference, I can't find one. Most of our books are in storage and I can't convince my wife to research this so I can't get a definitive answer there either.

But I can cite exactly where the impression that I have comes from. It was a mention on page 316 of Becoming a Doctor by Melvin Konner, MD. (This is an autobiographical account of one doctor's experiences in medical school.) "It was not a benign procedure, since rubbing too hard could stop the heart, but he handled it perfectly and the fast rhythm resolved. Now I don't know whether he was just misremembering a textbook when he claims that, or whether it is something that might happen if there is some pre-existing condition complicating affairs.

But I have an MD, in print, saying that it is possible to stop a heart with a carotid sinus massage. And that's probably the best that I'm going to do.

Sorry I don't have anything better,
Ben

 

[dakotajudo]

But I have an MD, in print, saying that it is possible to stop a heart with a carotid sinus massage. And that's probably the best that I'm going to do.

Sorry I don't have anything better,
Ben

Well, I did say I've not found any evidence of heart stoppage. But I last looked a couple years ago; another PubMed search turned up this case report, from 2005:

http://europace.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/7/6/638

So, I'll accept rare, but possible. But then, I might be a little loose with the concept of stopping the heart - fibrillation isn't the same as asystole.

Note that the patient was 76 and had a history of syncope, and that the massage was performed to test the cause of syncope (a little bit different context than your MD is using).

See Kowai for a discussion of the relative safety of chokes: http://www.judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

 

[EternalSceptic]

More precisely, pressure on the baroreceptors change cardiac output, not simply heart rate. Slowed heart rate may be partially compensated for by increased stroke volume (although, I don't know if that's happening in this case).



Have they?

I coach judo, and in the past taught a physiology lab; I've spent some time studying this reflex. Once, I did a demostration in lab once; we were recording student EKG's, so I had my assistant apply hadaka-jime - popularly known as the rear naked choke - still have the data, somewhere.

FWIW, the effect of the choke was comparable to the effect of the Valsalva maneuver.

Anyway, I've not found any evidence that people's hearts have stopped. Slowed greatly, yes. There's an interesting paper on chokes published by the Kodokan (the center for judo) on the physiological effects of shime-waza. This studied included EKG and choking to unconsciousness. Heart rates dropped to about 1/3 after the application of one type of strangle.

But not stopped completely.

I am suprised by the original post, that light pressure is sufficient to trigger as dramatic a change as described. I'm wondering if the OP isn't likely to pass out on the toilet.

No, I am not
wait... touch my throat ....... Ugh, see you in heaven
Seriously, the effect was stronger after I had a thorakothomy 4 years ago, now it just about halves the heart beat rate, And true, the strength of the heart beats increases.

 

[EternalSceptic]

Agreed that not all claimants are scammers. I don't think anybody believes that this is the case.

Where the scammers part from the sincere but uninformed is when they are given perfectly reasonable natural explanations, but reject them for questionable reasons.

In this example, as other posters have mentioned, this is a known reflex. A similar one that has 'mystical' claims around it is that your heartrate increases when you inhale, and decreases when you exhale. There are other ganglia that manage this throughout the circulatory system: your veins and arteries are innervated intentionally, to modify blood flow in case of injury.

Now, people can respond to these facts in two ways:

1. "Oh."

or

2. "But not in my case - this is a supernatural situation that just happens to also have a natural event that looks similar." (Randi's Unsinkable Ducks.)

Yepp. I've heard and read 2. ad nauseam. Sad.