Does the "Road map" lead to Peace?

Cleopatra

Philosopher
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President Bush has accepted severe criticism, so far, for not taking innitiatives to solve the Middle East conflict.
To this point Bush seemed to be the complete opposite of Pr.Clinton who during his administration took the matter personally without any true results.

Now, we see that Bush Administration is showing an honest determination to solve the problem.

Last weel the famous "Road Map" was made public.

( You can read it from the site of State Department :http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm )

The Palestinian PM Abu Mazen accepted immedietely, PM Sharon showed some reservations...

What I find very interesting though is not the fact itself that a plan was proposed.
What I found interesting is the various articles I read in the International Press...

For the first time Ariel Sharon is getting severe and serious criticism, even by his friends.

It seems to me that the time has come for some things to clarify.

It's time ofor everybody, to the Palestinian side and most of all to the Jewish side ( especially to the Jews of Diaspora) to decide what future they want for their children.

The most interesting artcle I read was the last Op-Ed of Thomas Friedman which justifies what I told you about Sharon.
read it! It's excellent!

Of course I have many comments regarding the refugess ( there is no way for Israel to accept the Palestinian refugees...) but generally speaking he makes some very interesting points.

With the U.S. having eliminated the most powerful threat to Israel — the regime of Saddam Hussein — one would think Mr. Sharon would pounce on this opportunity. Instead, Mr. Sharon has thrown up all sorts of delaying tactics. Alas, Mr. Sharon is following one of the iron rules of Middle East politics: When I am weak, how can I compromise? When I am strong, why should I compromise?

If this opportunity is lost, it could be the end of the two-state solution. The Jewish settlers will have won, and Israel will de facto retain all the territories. The Arab world will disengage from the whole peace process, and the Iraq war will be interpreted as a U.S. move to make the Middle East safe for Mr. Sharon's housing settlements, not for a peace settlement. The radicals will completely take over in the Palestinian camp. And more and more young American Jews will quietly drift away from Israel, as they see Israel turn from a Jewish democracy to a country where a Jewish minority forcibly
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http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/11/opinion/11FRIE.html?n=Top/Opinion/Editorials and Op-Ed/Op-Ed/Columnists/Thomas L Friedman
 
"Roadmap to peace"?

I doubt very seriously that peace could be found in the Middle East if it were to be equipped with a GPS transponder, and everyone involved had a hand-held GPS receiver. In order for peace to prevail in any situation, all parties involved must be in pursuit of the same goal. Drawing a map assumes there are some travelers who want to know the way.
 
I have criticised Friedman before for not taking a harder line on Israel, but he agrees with me this time. Sharon has been exposed for what he is, someone who prefers war to peace, to achieve his aim of taking over the West Bank and Gaza, with Palestinians reduced to the status of virtual prisoners inside ghettos.

I also noted an interview with Abu Mazen a few weeks ago in which he said more in one interview that made sense than Arafat could in ten years.
 
a_unique_person I have criticised Friedman before for not taking a harder line on Israel, but he agrees with me this time
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I knew that you had a sense of humor Unique! I knew it! :)

We know when Sharon comes from. He and Arafat are the two sides of the same coin. They belong to a different era, when everything was settled with the power of guns...

I have said it before. What I consider important is that USA Government seems to have decided to control Sharon. These are good news!

Now Peace needs time and both parts will need to prove that they are willing to built trust between them.

I'd suggest the third parts( " Their brothers -The Arabs" - " Our friends -The Zionists") to back off and let us find our way.

I have attended many funerals so far.

I have had enough.
 
According to the story I post below, PM Sharon has difficulties in "selling" the Road Map to the cabinet.

I believe that a politician's abilities are judged by the way he manages to "sell" ideas or projects for the benefit of his country.

If he can't do this, he has an alternative. He can always resign...


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716

Sharon Faces Challenge Selling 'Road Map'
2 hours, 5 minutes ago

By LISA J. ADAMS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - After reluctantly embracing a U.S.-backed peace plan Friday, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon faced stiff opposition from hardline ministers in his Cabinet, where the "road map" to Palestinian statehood could be voted on as early as Sunday
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I fear that the "road map to peace" may have been a politically motivated (like to win votes in the states) action that could cause more harm than good by stirring up emotions in an already unstable environment. The map looks good on the surface, but might be too much, too soon. You know, learn to walk before you learn to run... It took a long time for things to get this way, it won't change overnight.

Just for you Cleo, an old song from my youth :)

Recorded by Barry McGuire, © 1965 MCA Records Inc.

The Eastern world, it is explodin',
Violence flarin', bullets loadin'.
You're old enough to kill, but not for votin',
You don't believe in war -- but what's that gun you're totin'?
An' even the Jordan river has bodies floatin'.
But you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
Don't you understand what I'm tryin' to say,
An' can't you feel the fears I'm feelin' today?
If the button is pushed, there's no runnin' away,
There'll be no one to save, with the world in a grave.
Take a look around you, boy, it's bound to scare you, boy.
An' you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Yeah, my blood's so mad feels like coagulatin',
I'm sittin' here just contemplatin'.
I can't twist the truth, it knows no regulation,
Handful of senators don't pass legislation,
An' marches alone can't bring integration
When human respect is disintegratin',
This whole crazy world is just too frustratin'.
An' you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Think of all the hate there is in Red China,
Then take a look around to Selma, Alabama.
Ah, you may leave here for four days in space,
But when you return it's the same ol' place,
The poundin' of the drums, the pride an' disgrace.
You can bury your dead, but don't leave a trace.
Hate your next-door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace,
An' tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
You don't believe we're on the eve of destruction,
No, no, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
 
I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation.

They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.
 
This roadmap, while ambitious, is somewhat problematic. It is problematic because its something that a bunch of Americans sat around ad drew up themselves.

Being a software developer I recognize this roadmap well, its essentially the same thing we do when we want to outline a large project.

The problem is that even with these types of definitions and with Project Management things still slip, and the bigger problem is when people who are not involved in the work define the roadmap.

In this case we have the Bush administration trying to write a plan for peace that is to be followed by the people of the Middle East.

That's like a client writing up a definition for a software development project for and my team of software developers to follow.

Now, this may be a good starting point for discussion for the Israelis and Palestinians, but ultimately I think it will fail.

The question is in judging results.

These things can be forced, but if some of the milestones are met through the forced hand of the Bush administration then will they really be meaningful?

I'll say this, it can't hurt I don't think. Its not like the past 50 years has been productive.

Israel should never have been created in the first place.

Of course the communists (Bolsheviks) were against it, which I think is maybe why they did it :p

Israel was really created because of anti-Semitism you know, the people wanted to be able to get all the Jews out of their own countries and ship them off to somewhere else. The Socialists like Einstein and Trotsky were against it and saw the creation of Israel as an step against the Social Revolution.

The Anglos had divided the Jewish world into two camps, the Zionists and Bolsheviks (simplistic on their part), and they sided with the Zionists.

The real Bush roadmap to peace is Napoleonic.
 
I repeat that what I consider important about the Road Map, is not existence of a peace plan per se but the fact that the USA government seems determined to catch Sharon by the throat and make him negotiate.
Todays news show exactly this.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Mideast_Conflict

Look at this title : "Israeli Cabinet Narrowly OKs Peace Plan"

As if they dared to reject the plan...They have done it before but according to the News again during the last days C.Rice was in intense talks with Sharon... She was pushing...

Read below ( phrases were stressed by me) : "Israel's Cabinet narrowly approved a U.S.-backed Middle East peace plan Sunday, accepting for the first time a timetable for the creation of an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but also objecting to significant portions of the plan. "It was a historic day," Cabinet minister Tsipi Livni said. "It was not an easy vote for a right-wing coalition. Maybe it's a sign of hope." Last month, the Palestinians accepted the three-phase "road map" to peace, which envisions a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza "

The Road Map plan has many problems indeed but we can't really wait for the old Hawks of War to learn how to walk in that age... We can't wait for anymore . We want peace and we want it now!

peptoabysmal said:

An' tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
You don't believe we're on the eve of destruction,
No, no, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
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Aenias ( one of the most noble figures in Litterature IMHO) to his companions:

"O socii, neque enim ignari sumus ante malorum,
O passi graviora, dabit deus his quoque finem. . . ."

Oh companions, we are not ignorant of the previous horrors,
and having suffered worse, God will bring also these to an end. . . .

Aeniad,(Book I, ll. 198-199, 208-209)

Thank you very much for the song peptoabysmal :)
 
Richard G said:
I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation.

They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.
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I don't believe that fundamentalist terrorists represent all Palestinians any more than the Klu Klux Klan or the Neo Nazis represent all white people.

The terrorists are nothing but the Mid East version of cross-burners. Killing is so much more satisfying in the name of God or Allah.
 
I doubt it, the Palestinian vermin will eventually detonate themselves in an Israeli mall and the whole road map will be discarded and forgotten. The only way to bring peace is through victory. The Palestinians need to be engaged in an all out war until they are all dead or they unconditionally surrender.


With the palestinians indoctrinating their children, it is unlikely the next generation will want to make peace with Israel.
 
Maps mean nothing if people don't stick to the road. Do I hope for peace? Yes. Do I expect both sides to fail at peace? Yes.

Even if everything happens if favor of the plan, a few suicide bombers will continue to make matters worse for both sides.

I am glad to see Bush step into trying to do something, anything.
 
It looks like Sharon has managed to make the idiots in his cabinet at least acccept the acceptance of the start of the road map. Even if he does not plan to really accept it in the future, he has to make an act of starting to follow it.
 
Cleopatra said:
Unique.

Why are you trolling again?
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They are idiots if they had to be pursuaded to vote to follow it. I can't believe Sharon had to make them vote that way. To turn it down outright, without even making a pretence of following the road map, would have been political suicide. There are no two ways about it. Part of Blairs condition that he backed Iraq was that the US had to get serious about Palestine. If the whole thing failed right from the start, that would have been the end of British backing for the War Against Terror, which the US desperately craves.

As it is, there will be plenty of chances to pull out or modify it further down the road.
 
Hmmmm... What do we have here?

Why now? What has he promised them? Of course, if the attacks are to stop it doesn't really matter , it just makes me wonder. What was the promise that was made that couldn't have been made earlier so as to save innocent civilians from both sides?

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=mideast_conflict

Abbas Says Militants May Cease Attacks
1 hour, 38 minutes ago

By LISA J. ADAMS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - The Islamic militant group Hamas could agree as early as next week to halt deadly attacks on Israelis, Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas said in comments published Thursday, just hours before a summit with his Israeli counterpart to discuss a Mideast peace plan.
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Cleopatra:
Why now? What has he promised them? Of course, if the attacks are to stop it doesn't really matter , it just makes me wonder. What was the promise that was made that couldn't have been made earlier so as to save innocent civilians from both sides?
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Absolutely the interesting point: what is going on with Sharon? What are the conversations in his kitchen? Oh, to be a fly-on-the-wall there. Sharon didn't use the word "occupation" by accident, even if he's rowing back from it now. And that's just one remarkable event. There are all sorts of plots and strategems and different messages for different constituencies going on, and I for one am flummoxed.
First point I'd make, in case the news overtakes me: I hope Sharon has taken good care of his security. Whatever's really going on, there are plenty of young settlers out there who are going to be out of the loop.

A repeating feature of recent Israeli politics has been the phenomenon of the convinced nationalist gaining power and eventually turning to compromise. Even Begin did it. The reason it happens, to my mind, is the nasty shock of the real. You can be as nationalist as you like - and put your body on the line for it, in some cases - when conviction is all it demands, but there's a matter of sustainability which passion can't dispel. Even after a century the Yishuv still cannot survive without subsidy. And the business of making a 'nation' out of the disparate mix that is the Israeli population has never really been addressed - except by political strategists, who address it by carving out target groups which exacerbates the situation. The security issue was, is and will be (for an indeterminate period) the only thing that defines Israel. In the security issue I include the fear that the US is about to launch pogroms against Jews. After all, we are told, that's what everybody always does.

So is Sharon bending to the economic pressure? At the current moment of crisis we have general strikes being called, which admittedly mostly affects the public sector. But since the public sector accounts for 55% of GDP it has to be saying something. The budget has been passed but it's a billlion (I vaguely recall) shekels short of the originally planned cuts. And the Yanks are poring over the books for some reason. Even George II is getting involved; what the hell is going on here? Cleopatra, your Israeli connections are more up-to-date than mine: is Nixon going to China?

On the other hand, he could just be stalling in the hope that the whole project is about to come to fruition - in his lifetime. Post-Iraq there's no real credible threat to Israel locally - the Syrians know they're hanging by a thread and the Iranians aren't Arabs and have other priorities. It has always been an explicit part of the nationalist Zionist project that Israel must become independently invulnerable. (Thus the early pursuit of nuclear weapons, against US wishes.) Maybe now - or soon, after a rising body-count caused by those damned ungrateful Iraqis - is the time that world opinion can be as outraged as it likes, and the Palestinians can be cleared out. Pushed into Jordan, into Egypt, into Lebanon or the sea, whatever. Who's going to do anything about it?

I'm intrigued.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/29/abbas.sharon/index.html

...

Before the meeting, Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas said he expected a halt to attacks by Hamas against Israelis within a week, an Israeli newspaper reported.

The meeting between Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon -- their second in two weeks -- took place at Sharon's office in Jerusalem.

...
.
Abbas told Ha'aretz he expected to reach an agreement within a week with Hamas to stop attacks against Israelis.

Hamas, a Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist group, has claimed responsibility for four recent suicide bombings against Israelis and has acknowledged previous attacks on Israeli civilians and soldiers. The U.S. State Department labels the group a terrorist organization.
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Good news! And for those who said that Arafat had no control over terrorists- one month into his term, Abbas has gotten the most radical groups to agree to stop violence. Does anyone still believe Arafat could not have controlled those groups? Israel did the correct thing by pressuring for PM. And yet Arafat still tries to undermine his PM and the peace process.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...030527/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_533

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) stepped in to assert Tuesday that he — not his prime minister — is in charge of the Palestinian side in negotiations with Israel, throwing plans for an Israeli-Palestinian summit into confusion.

The dispute underlined the power struggle between Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas, the prime minister he grudgingly appointed under international pressure, as efforts to move forward on a new peace plan intensified.

Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) had been set to hold talks Wednesday on implementing the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan — their second meeting since Abbas assumed office in April.

But at a meeting of the PLO executive committee, Arafat said he wanted to review Israeli proposals on security arrangements before approving another summit — raising the possibility of a delay, a member of the committee said on condition of anonymity.

...

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said he had been told the Sharon-Abbas meeting was postponed "for technical reasons." And White House spokesman Ari Fleischer (news - web sites) said he "would not be surprised if a bilateral meeting still took place in the near future."

The PLO executive member said that with the jockeying over the summit, Arafat was sending a message to the United States, Israel and Abbas that Arafat makes the decisions over negotiations.

Arafat has been fighting a rearguard action to limit Abbas' powers — objecting to the makeup of his Cabinet, retaining control of most Palestinian security forces and keeping for himself the final word over peace moves.

The law that brought in Abbas in April limits his authority and gives the PLO executive the right of approval over negotiating steps with Israel. Arafat controls the PLO executive, where Abbas is his deputy.

Israel and the United States have been seeking to sideline Arafat, charging that he is tainted by terrorism and has led his Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) into corruption and inefficiency.
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"My assessment is that by next week I will arrive at a ceasefire agreement with Hamas," Mr Abbas told the daily Yedioth Ahronoth. "Hamas will commit to halting terrorism both within the Green Line (inside Israel) and in the territories."

But a senior Hamas official said he was not aware of such a deal and the Palestinian leader's failure to secure such a deal with Hamas in talks last week have raised doubts about his chances this time around.
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http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/29/1054177671812.html

I think it will be like the NI situation, splinter groups will still do what they want.
 
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