• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

advancedatheist

Thinker
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
200
Christians tend to argue that god's existence and activities give life meaning and purpose (M&P). I wonder if they extend this idea to their belief in hell. Would life lack M&P if eternal punishment didn't exist?
 
I would think so. Some folks just can't be moral unless they are constantly threatened, so it seems.
 
In addition, Life is sweet if you know your enemies are going to suffer in anguish forever.
 
advancedatheist said:
Christians tend to argue that god's existence and activities give life meaning and purpose (M&P). I wonder if they extend this idea to their belief in hell. Would life lack M&P if eternal punishment didn't exist?

Sort of...

The possibility of Hell is the necessary result of free will, I think. Free will doesn't have any meaning or purpose if their is an inability to choose Hell (the rejection of God).

So I think there is an indirect point in what you are saying. Life would lack meaning if we could not choose to reject God, which is how I define Hell and how many other people define Hell as well.

-Elliot
 
Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

elliotfc said:
Sort of...

The possibility of Hell is the necessary result of free will, I think. Free will doesn't have any meaning or purpose if their is an inability to choose Hell (the rejection of God).

So I think there is an indirect point in what you are saying. Life would lack meaning if we could not choose to reject God, which is how I define Hell and how many other people define Hell as well.

-Elliot


Hrm. That last sentence...

Life would lack meaning without the ability to reject god.

Hmmmmmm...


Doesn't this just say that not choosing Hell gives life Meaning and Purpose? Avoiding Pain and Accepting Pleasure?


Paging Dr. Freud.....
 
Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

clarsct said:
Hrm. That last sentence...

Life would lack meaning without the ability to reject god.

Hmmmmmm...


Doesn't this just say that not choosing Hell gives life Meaning and Purpose? Avoiding Pain and Accepting Pleasure?

No, not at all. Pain and pleasure are irrelevant to the point. If you see pain and pleasure in that, the Freudian slip is yours.

You're focused on Hell. Hell is not defined for what it is, but for what it isn't. To the person who considers God to be Satan, Hell wouldn't be punishment anyhow. Pain/pleasure are subjective sentiments that differ from person to person.

-Elliot
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

elliotfc said:
No, not at all. Pain and pleasure are irrelevant to the point. If you see pain and pleasure in that, the Freudian slip is yours.

You're focused on Hell. Hell is not defined for what it is, but for what it isn't. To the person who considers God to be Satan, Hell wouldn't be punishment anyhow. Pain/pleasure are subjective sentiments that differ from person to person.

-Elliot
Now the basic problem is that God is unatainable. Hence wanting God is a sickness, a neurosis. Not even Freud can help you there. The very definition of pleasure requires that there be pain--don't mean to get dual on you. So how could you have God (ultimate pleasure) without pain?
 
I've been trying to decipher elliotfc's post here.

Are you saying that of you do not worship God, then, by default, you worship Satan?

Or am I misunderstanding?
 
Atlas said:
In addition, Life is sweet if you know your enemies are going to suffer in anguish forever.

Originally posted by Tertullian [De Spectaculis]

But what a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One! What that exultation of the angelic hosts! What the glory of the rising saints! What the kingdom of the just thereafter! What the city New Jerusalem! Yes, and there are other sights: that last day of judgment, with its everlasting issues; that day unlooked for by the nations, the theme of their derision, when the world hoary with age, and all its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? what my derision? Which sight gives me joy? which rouses me to exultation?--as I see so many illustrious monarchs, whose reception into the heavens was publicly announced, groaning now in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those, too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride they raged against the followers of Christ. What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them! Poets also, trembling not before the judgment-seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more "dissolute" in the dissolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer, all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows; unless even then I shall not care to attend to such ministers of sin, in my eager wish rather to fix a gaze insatiable on those whose fury vented itself against the Lord. "This," I shall say, "this is that carpenter's or hireling's son, that Sabbath-breaker, that Samaritan and devil-possessed! This is He whom you purchased from Judas! This is He whom you struck with reed and fist, whom you contemptuously spat upon, to whom you gave gall and vinegar to drink! This is He whom His disciples secretly stole away, that it might be said He had risen again, or the gardener abstracted, that his lettuces might come to no harm from the crowds of visitants!" What quaestor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favour of seeing and exulting in such things as these? And yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination. But what are the things which eye has not seen, ear has not heard, and which have not so much as dimly dawned upon the human heart? Whatever they are, they are nobler, I believe, than circus, and both theatres,and every race-course.
 
Some may long for 72 virgin Hūris; but others long for the sight of philosophers and actors being burnt in hell. Indeed, how can your life be meaningful without the prospect of seeing your opponents burning in hell? Claiming that you feel sorry for those 99.99% of mankind that will end up in hell is just modern weaselism.
 
jan said:
Some may long for 72 virgin Hūris
And I guess they're going to be kind of disappointed if it turns out, as has been suggested, that what's on offer is actually a plate of dried grapes...

Edited to add link.
 
Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

elliotfc said:
Life would lack meaning if we could not choose to reject God, which is how I define Hell and how many other people define Hell as well.

I assume you are just talking about xians here?



"Hell" is the fear factor required to enslave a people's 'spirit'. If a religion offers 'bliss' upon death to faithful adherents - the need for 'anguish' upon death by the faithless is obvious.
 
Mojo said:
And I guess they're going to be kind of disappointed if it turns out, as has been suggested, that what's on offer is actually a plate of dried grapes...

Edited to add link.

I found this at that site:

Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal...

Now see, this is the kind of misinformation Americans receive nowdays. I've been hearing on TV that if an erection lasts more than 4 hours you need to see a doctor.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

FreeChile said:
Now the basic problem is that God is unatainable. Hence wanting God is a sickness, a neurosis. Not even Freud can help you there. The very definition of pleasure requires that there be pain--don't mean to get dual on you. So how could you have God (ultimate pleasure) without pain?

I don't think that God is unatainable, for I believe in the sacramental presence of God in the Eucharist.

You're free to have any opinion about my mental state, whatever makes you feel good. You can die thinking about how neurotic all of the people surrounding you were. And then it won't matter to you anymore. You can make much ado about nothing if you want. Thankfully, your opinion about my personal mental state is useless, besides the effect that judgment has on your own personal mental state.

Let's just call people who think different than us neurotic. That's brilliant. That'll show 'em.

Some people find things pleasurable that other find painful.

I don't define God as ultimate pleasure, and I'm surprised that is your definition of God. No wonder you don't believe in God. Because that is your working definition it's tough to see any point in what you've said.

-Elliot
 
clarsct said:
I've been trying to decipher elliotfc's post here.

Are you saying that of you do not worship God, then, by default, you worship Satan?

Or am I misunderstanding?

You are misunderstanding, and frankly, I have no idea how you came to that conclusion based on what I said.

I think you could surmise that if you do not worship God, then, by default, you worship yourself. And I didn't say that either. And I think that's a pretty harsh thing to say actually which is only true for some people.

-Elliot
 
jan said:
Some may long for 72 virgin Hūris; but others long for the sight of philosophers and actors being burnt in hell. Indeed, how can your life be meaningful without the prospect of seeing your opponents burning in hell? Claiming that you feel sorry for those 99.99% of mankind that will end up in hell is just modern weaselism.

But mine is. I have no desire to see anyone burn in Hell. If some people are burning in hell, or do burn in hell, it's because they rejected God of their own free will. I think the burning in hell bit would be their own manifestation of their eternal reality, and that manifestation is variable.

I don't think that 99.99% of people will burn in hell.

I think peoples' lives can be meaningful for a litany of different reasons, and wondering about that is kind of silly. How can a person's life be meaningful given A, B, and C? It just seems like a silly question to ask, or a silly point to make. People find meaning in the most outrageous things, the most mundane things, the most random things, etc.

See, meaning is a personal choice. Right? It's not some objective thing that can be stated scientifically.

It's bizarre that atheists/agnostics are hung up on meaning, but whatever.

-Elliot
 
Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

triadboy said:
"Hell" is the fear factor required to enslave a people's 'spirit'. If a religion offers 'bliss' upon death to faithful adherents - the need for 'anguish' upon death by the faithless is obvious.

I disagree with your notion of Hell.

I have no need for anguish on others, yet I have faith.

Not sure what else I can say...besides that you have an apparent "need" to fixate on other's needs.

-Elliot
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

elliotfc said:
I have no need for anguish on others, yet I have faith.

Of course YOU don't - however your religion needs a 'hell' for the anguish of others.
 
jan said:
Some may long for 72 virgin Hūris; but others long for the sight of philosophers and actors being burnt in hell.

Not just the philosophers and actors, though, but also the governors who persecuted Christians. I know I have heard Christians say informally that they hope that there is a special place in Hell for pedophiles. Not too surprisingly, these Christians are parents. Elie Wiesel gave a prayer at Auschwitz asking God to have no mercy on those responsible for killing Jewish children in the Holocaust. Right or wrong, wanting to see one's tormentors and others who get away with wrongdoing get their comeuppance is understandable.
 
Elliotfc said:
The possibility of Hell is the necessary result of free will, I think. Free will doesn't have any meaning or purpose if their is an inability to choose Hell (the rejection of God).
Could you define free will for us? We've been around this free will thing many times, but have yet to see a definition. The term appears to be important as far as heaven and hell are concerned.

~~ Paul
 

Back
Top Bottom